British-German beer style twins

Michael, do you think these beers should be categorized as Euro Dark Lagers?

https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/style/149/

It is kinda weird that there is no description associated with this Beer Advocate beer style.

On a related matter I have a Tmavý Ležák (Czech Dark Lager) in my lagering chamber right now (second time brewing that batch). That beer does not taste like a Schwarzbier.

Cheers!

 

By making the distinction above, you are simplifying my position. I was focusing on how a reader views the relationship between the beer and the listed style rather than pointing a finger at the taxonomy. I'm actually saying that the reader needs to be more forgiving with any shortcomings of the taxonomy. They need to be more open-minded when engaging with it (and putting in a change request is one example of doing that). I obviously wouldn't disagree with the idea that if a beer would be better represented under a different style listing, then this is part of the "problem." I think we differ just in terms of degrees. I think that this just exacerbates the issue rather than being the dominant issue or the cause of the issue.

 

Right. So if the only choices are a specific category (Schwartzbier) or a catch all category (Euro Dark Lagers), it seems to imply that everything that isn't a Schwartzbier goes into the catch all by default.

ETA: the last time you sent me a bottle of that beer it didn't come across as a Schwartzbier to me either.

 

I mostly agree so long as we recognize this is a multi variable problem. But I’d say the least tractable part of the overall problem is the interpretation by large numbers of folks. As a friend of mine used to say, “There are two kinds of people in the world, those who put everything into two categories and those who don’t.”

It’s part of many people’s basic nature to want nice clean, unambiguous, unfuzzy distinctions and taxonomies.

 

Please let me give you some unsolicited advice. I think it's great that you've thrown yourself into trying to learn as much as you can about different styles of beer. I also think it's great that you're as engaged as you are here. My advice is that you'd be better off opening yourself up to the idea that there are different perspectives out there... and while you might not find yourself putting much stock in them, you can at least deepen your thinking about these things by listening to what others have to say. You might even come to the realization that sometimes those other perspectives have a better foundation than the sources that you previously saw as gospel.

Does it matter that American beer nerds act like there's a UK style of beer called ESB... but when a beer nerd in the UK says ESB they'd probably be talking about a specific brand of bitter? It does if you're actually trying to make honest connections with items on a style list and the part of the world where they are supposedly from. If you aren't, that's OK, it'll just be a huge blind spot (we all have our blind spots). Imagine if some self-appointed German beer authorities decided to make their own version of a "definitive" beer list... and they decided to classify all American IPAs as "Pliny ales" (actually, bad example, that might be a classification improvement ).

To your point, someone can't actually decide if something is or isn't a style. If enough beers are marketed as X, and that functions as something meaningful to enough people, then X is a style. But that doesn't mean that one can't point out the failings, BS, shaky foundation, cultural appropriation, misrepresentation, or whatever else is lacking about that idea. Be open to those criticisms. Personally, I don't use ESB as a term for a style because any British source that I like doesn't do it either... and that perspective is part of the point for me. You can do whatever you want in that regard though. It's not really about ESB, but just about being open-minded in general. Sorry for the pretentious post.

 

Yep.

 

Casualty of the great craft beer movement here in the States I assume.

In 1995 I could fine 10-plus English imports in the pale ale family no problem. Ram Rod, Young's Special and Samuel Smith's Old Brewery were my favorites and they were very easy to find. Now? Bass pale was the only import of any kind in the English pale ale family I found last hunting trip.

It seems nuts to complain too loudly, so I don't. But I do complain.

 

Of course, in the US, Bass Pale Ale is the "kind of import" that is brewed in an Anheuser-Busch brewery in New York State or New Hampshire...

 

Exactly what I'm saying. Not even Bass is Bass.

*sigh*

Oh, well. Someday some American brewer whose beer is distributed in my purview is going to tackle the English pale ale. Until then Hans' Pils and Live Oak Pilz will ease the pain.

 

If you ever make it to the mid-Atlantic area I would recommend that you seek out some Yards beers. I am particularly fond of the ESA (Extra Special Ale) and Brawler (a dark mild ale) on cask.

Cheers!

 

You bet I will!

I've had Brawler and loved it. It's easily the best American-made version of an English pale-style beer of any I've tried, and nothing else comes close. London Homesick Ale by Oasis Texas Brewing wins the silver medal but finishes well behind Brawler. Sadly I can't even think of a bronze medal winner.

Thanks for the tip!

 

Some of the Young’s beers were casualties of the merger with Wells.

 

And to corroborate that here's a list from my local beer festival. 400 different beers on cask in all styles and no mention of ESB.
http://www.peterborough-camra.org.uk/index.php?module=pbfbeer

 

ESB has gone the same way as Wee Heavy,just the name of an individual beer mistaken for a different style.
Wee Heavy was just Heavy being sold by Fowler's in wee (meaning small) bottles.

 

This immediately came to mind for me, too. To add to that, those come in different shades and varying levels of roast character...a bit like schwarzbier and dunkel, yet not the same. They also use both Cerne ("black") and Tmave ("dark") to describe those beers.

There are people rallying to add a dozen IPA categories, but yet these are borderline forgotten in one of Europe's beer capitals. I'd really like to see a Czech dark lager category added to BA, but I suppose it'll take some sort of sudden American interest in the style to make it happen.

 

I don't get similarities, unless we get reaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllly broad in definitions.

English Ale Yeast has noticeably more fruit esters, even compared to lagered Ale styles like Altbier/Kölsch.

for example:
Porter is much more roasty & bitter than Schwarzbier
Brown ale is sweeter and milder than Altbier.
Golden Ale is fruitier than Kölsch.
And don't even get me started on the ridiculous Barleywine/Doppelbock comparison.

 

I've always thought of Altbier as being roughly equivalent to a stronger Bitter. Not identical to the extent that you could mistake one for the other, but they're in the same ballpark in a lot of respects, and both of them, when they're good, have for that sort of sessionability where they don't constantly demand your attention but you can keep drinking then all evening without getting bored.

Otherwise, yeah, I don't see much in the way of parallel styles except in the broadest possible terms.

 

It's probably a side discussion...but there is quite a large difference between the product coming from the large and small altbier breweries. You'd be hard pressed to identify Schlosser Alt and Fuchshen Alt as being the same type of beer without knowing. Ditto with Schumacher and Frankenheimer. I'd say both probably have more in common with other styles than they do one another.

 

I don't think that's something particular to that style though (which doesn't take anything away from your point being a great observation). The range within a style can be so large that a beer in it might have more in common with a particular beer in another style than a different beer in the same style. Perhaps this is most evident today in the vast spectrum of American IPAs. Barley wines have been rebranded as IPAs... but you wouldn't confuse those beers with NEIPAs. You're also bringing brewery size into the picture, which is interesting with regard to trends coming out of specific types of breweries.

 

Diebels compared to Zum Uerige? No comparison to my palate.