Question on Imperial Stout styles

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by vbiliyar, Nov 2, 2012.

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  1. vbiliyar

    vbiliyar Initiate (0) Jan 13, 2008 Wisconsin

    Hi all. I'm trying to get a handle on the difference between imperial stouts (either RIS or American Double). Some of the beers within are my favorite beers hands-down, but others have a more bitter / coffee note that always strikes me the wrong way. Examples:

    These are among my favorites: BCBS (normal, bramble), Mephistopheles, BA Santa's Helper, Sam Smith's Imp., Bear Republic Big Bear, WWS

    These I don't particularly like: BCBS (coffee), Abyss, Imperial Stout Trooper, SN Narwhal, NC Old Rasputin, Brooklyn BCS, Storm King, Espresso Oak Yeti

    Now I know many in the former category are barrel-aged beers, so it's clear I like the bourbon. I also notice that basically all the ones I don't like are classified as RISs. My question: where does the bitterness in some of these come from? Most aren't explicitly adding coffee (which would account for some of the bitterness), correct? Does roasting (/ burning?) the malt impart more bitter flavors? The description of the styles mention that Am. Imp. Stouts are sweeter, which I've certainly noticed. Does that typically mask bitterness as well?

    Thanks for any responses. I'm mostly looking to avoid shelling out cash for exciting beers that I probably won't like, since these tend to be a hell of a lot more expensive than most other beers.
     
  2. steve8robin

    steve8robin Savant (1,236) Nov 7, 2009 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Well, this is really a super loaded question. In the case of BCBCS, they actually do add coffee in their brewing process. I assume Espresso Oak Yeti does too, but I am not sure. Usually beers that advertise themselves as Coffee / Espresso usually do have coffee used in the brewing process. However, if your question is on bitterness, there really is a lot that can go into that and would be different from brew to brew. There are some coffee beers that are not really bitter at all. It all really depends on the process / quantities. As we all know, hops are one way to increase bitterness. The more hops added early in the boiling process, the more bitter the beer will be perceived as. However, this is only 1 factor. You could, essentially, have 2 beers with the same amount of hops added with different perceived bitterness. Factors that effect this could be types of hops, mash temps, fermentation factors, etc. Varieties of malt can impart a roasty / smoky flavor, but not necessarily bitterness. So there could be a stout that uses a ton of Roasted Barley and Chocolate Malt which will add some roastiness. There could also be a stout that uses more dark caramel malts which could make a sweeter, less roasty brew. Barrel aged brews go through a lengthy fermentation process in most cases, which helps to mellow out some of the harsh flavors and impart some flavors of it's own. I guess what I'm saying is, unfortunately, there is usually no definitive way from looking at a label to know if the stout you are about to buy is more roasty, bitter, or sweet. My recommendation would be read the labels for beer descriptions and some of the reviews on here to try and deduce if a particular one seems like it would be more up your alley. Hope this helps.
     
  3. lavellen

    lavellen Initiate (0) Mar 24, 2008 Michigan

    I actually think your pallet has a sensitivity to either black roasted and black (patent) malts, and as a result you won't be able to really know whether you are going to like an Imp stout or not unless you've already had it. Coffee is indeed in the coffee beers listed so you have an aversion to that as well. The best way to know for you is going to be finding someone like Big Sky, New Belgium, or Rogue who actually posts what is in their beer online or on the side of the bottle and do their imperial or black American stout and try to make note of which of these two malts you can't take. Unfortunately I think it's going to be a crap shoot for you though since so many breweries don't post their malt bill. Black Roasted malts and Black Malts are different so try to keep a distinction and feel free to share your results!!
     
    PapaGoose03 likes this.
  4. hophead247

    hophead247 Initiate (0) Jan 27, 2008 California

    Everyone's palate is going to be different, but it sounds like maybe you don't like coffee? Or maybe stouts that are more on the bitter side. Big Black Bear is hoppy as hell, but it's not even an imperial/double. Been classified wrong on this site for years and hasn't been changed yet. Like you, it's always been one of my favorites. So that leads me to believe it's the stouts with coffee flavor you tend to avoid.

    Obviously it could be hard to tell if you like a beer that you haven't tried yet until you try it. You can read reviews, but those people could be picking up different flavor notes. I say just go in with a bunch of friends, pick up some double/imperial/RIS that you haven't had, an have a tasting to choose your favorites.
     
    seplo likes this.
  5. seplo

    seplo Pundit (923) Sep 8, 2009 Connecticut

    I am on the other side of it, Im into the coffee and hopped up imperial/double stouts, another thing you might want to try is looking at the btl itself and see how many IBU's are in it(international bittering units), if you see how many are in the ones you like then you could avoid the ones that have more cuz they're more bitter and chances are you wont like them. I pesonally dont like the sweet ones which is why i dont like Dark Lord or Darkness, you on the other hand will probably love them, but being up in NE like myself youre gonna have to trade for them.Hope this was helpfull....CHEERS
     
  6. MightyDog

    MightyDog Initiate (0) Aug 22, 2012 Texas

    Unless you are really sensitive to tannins (you'll get these if the mash or sparge temp is too hot), it's probably the hops the brewers choose to use. Hop oil degenerates with time. Like steve8robin was saying, it could be a case of time helping out with the bitterness more than the bourbon barrel.

    Coffee is usually added at the very end of the boil (the five or zero minute mark right before the cold break), secondary, or tertiary fermentation stages. Adjuncts at those times will usually impart more aroma, and to a lesser extent flavor, than bitterness. So I'm skeptical that's what you aren't liking about latter group unless you just don't like coffee.

    Roasted malt are used to impart flavor and color more than bitterness (and sometimes to help lower pH of the water). You'd have to use something like a black malt to really affect the bitterness of the beer with your malt. Darker malts are usually low percentage of the grain bill since the starch conversion is really low in those grains.

    Just as an aside, when you read Imperial just think "double". Double hops, double grain bill, everything is bigger. The original measured gravity will probably be twice what the base version of the stout measures at. So if you like the usually cheaper base version of a stout (as far as bitterness), you'll probably be OK with the imperial version.
     
    PapaGoose03 likes this.
  7. aurorabeerealis

    aurorabeerealis Initiate (0) Jun 9, 2010 California

    I have found YouTube to be helpful. Just search the beer in question and there are usually several reviews. BeerGeekNation is one of my favorites.
     
  8. vbiliyar

    vbiliyar Initiate (0) Jan 13, 2008 Wisconsin

    I definitely like the flavor of coffee, but not really a fan of coffee bitterness. I think the black malt issue might be the most salient. If these are similar to the malt used in Black IPAs (which I abhor), then for sure that's what's going on. I'll try to pay attention to the malt bill if it's mentioned.

    Thanks for the feedback.
     
  9. Biffster

    Biffster Initiate (0) Mar 29, 2004 Michigan

    The classic Russian Imperial Stout is probably closer to the type you don't like (big deal - drink what you like). The reason, I am guessing, is not just hop bitterness, but the intense roasty burnt character from the extensive use of black roasted and black patent type malts.

    All other dark styles (stout, porter, black lager, etc) use dark malts such as those surprisingly sparingly. A little (typically less than 5% and often as little as 2% of the malt bill) goes a surprisingly long way to give a black appearance and a nice roasty touch to dry stouts and porters. RIS, by contrast, uses a very generous amount of this type of malt, and the result is an intensely roasty, burnt, even tar like character. This is normally enhanced by a larger than expected hop bitterness (often as much in IBUs as IPAs).

    It's funny, because RIS is the origin of the term "Imperial" to mean "double" anything. And as it turns out, this is the one place where the "Imperial" version is not actually just a "double" version of the same style. If you take a dry stout recipe and multiply the malt and hop bill by two (or even three) you will get an interesting beer, but it wont stylistically be a Russian Imperial Stout. It would likely be more like a strong Foreign Export Stout.

    I would also say, however, that the black malt used in black IPAs is different. There is a relatively new development in dark malts - they are dehusked dark malts. All of the bitterness comes from the burnt husk. When dehusked, the resulting malt lends lots of dark chocolatey roasty flavors with none of the bitter burnt taste. I would also say that this is what allowed black IPA to develop. I can tell you from bitter (no pun intended) experience that making a black IPA with traditional roasted malt creates a bitter astringency multiplier effect that results in a completely undrinkable mess.

    The only reason RIS can get away with the combination of traditional roasted malt and high IBU (and it doesn't work for everyone, OP apparently included) is the big malty backbone and residual sweetness.
     
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