Question about Kellerbier/Zwickelbier

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by johnnybgood1999, Nov 21, 2019.

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  1. johnnybgood1999

    johnnybgood1999 Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2008 Virginia

    I'm drinking Bell of Hope from Devil's Backbone, which is a beer called on the label a "Keller Pilsner". I have wanted to try a Kellerbier for quite some time (I've never seen one) and picked this up in a mix 6 as soon as I saw the description.

    My question is can this style be filtered? The description on here states that these beers are unfiltered. This beer is clear as a whistle. Are some unfiltered beers of this style or any other filtered, yet appear perfectly clear?

    As for the beer, I like it a lot. It is smooth, crisp, etc., for feel. Hops hit in a pleasant way on the front of the palate and meld with a sweeter malt base than I usually find in a pilsner (does that sweetness present in a Kellerbier/Zwickelbier?) It's very well done. I'm just not sure in my inexperience that I am drinking a beer brewed to style.
     
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  2. johnnybgood1999

    johnnybgood1999 Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2008 Virginia

    Reading a bit more through the description I'm wondering how much of that well done, light sweetness is yeast and how much is malt.
     
  3. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,282) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    If left in the tank long enough, a beer can drop clear without filtering. Also, there are various "fining" agents available to help clear up a beer.
     
  4. johnnybgood1999

    johnnybgood1999 Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2008 Virginia

    Another question then. If you use those agents on a beer that is unfiltered per style, is it within style to then clear it up?
     
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  5. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Grand Pooh-Bah (3,862) Mar 12, 2013 California
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    My understanding is that "Keller" means "cellar" and as such doesn't denote much more than "lager". However I understand that typically a "kellerbier" is served straight from the "Keller" and is, as such, typically unfiltered.
    For what it's worth, I thunk the style you described might be more typically labeled "kellerpils"
     
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  6. johnnybgood1999

    johnnybgood1999 Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2008 Virginia

    That is exactly the wording on the label that has me confused. Based on descriptions I can see how kellar or cellar is applicable. This leads me to believe a mass producing brewery like DB would put out more of a hybrid style than true to style Keller?
     
  7. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Grand Pooh-Bah (3,862) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    I guess that's the crux of things, there isn't a true 'keller' style. Historically, depending on where you were, there might have been a style of lager that they brewed and then served unfiltered direct from the 'keller' vs other beers they may have brewed and then casked?
    really it seems to me that 'keller' on a US beer label probably just means 'unfilered' lager style. But I wouldn't be shocked if we started seeing 'keller IPA's sooner than later
     
  8. johnnybgood1999

    johnnybgood1999 Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2008 Virginia

    Unfiltered keler IPAs may be a thing. Thanks for the info. It seems that the parameters here in the U.S. may be a but vague from your post. I'd like a traditional version of this beer. Seems that may be hard to find, though I'd recommend this beer to anyone. The DB version is unique and may be my favorite from them.
     
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  9. zid

    zid Grand Pooh-Bah (3,058) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    When an American brewer calls a packaged beer a “Keller Pilsner,” it just means an unfiltered pilsner - and that’s exactly what this Devils Backbone beer is according to their website. It can still be quite clear in appearance rather than cloudy. It features Citra, so in that regard it fits in as a lager in the American craft beer mold too. As far as “to style,” that beer sounds no different than any other American “”Keller Pilsner.” Bottled “Kellerbiers” in Germany tend to be different, but that’s just convention and generalities rather than some sort of style rule. Don’t get too hung up on it.
     
  10. RochefortChris

    RochefortChris Grand Pooh-Bah (3,017) Oct 2, 2012 North Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Traditonally speaking Kellerbier is more of a serving style than a beer style. Historically kellerbiers were served directly from the lagering vessel after it was stored in caves or a cellar, hence the name. Many breweries now call their beers 'kellerbiers' for marketing purposes whereas very few actually practice the serving technique
     
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  11. nc41

    nc41 Initiate (0) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    I’m a complete novice here, but I’d imagine that any original form and function from German brewers will be Americanized to make it acceptable for mass production. The basics are there but would bastardized be a bit too strong? After all those German brewers only had to supply a town or two and didn’t have to worry about serving a large footprint, so time and effort were of no real concern, and staying true to the style everything. Not sure how big a footprint DB has bit I’d assume the Southeast at the very least, which is sizable by population and distance, but more, bigger and faster is pure America across many retail lines and products, and along with beer. So maybe a short cut here and there that’s just not practical to hit distro,
     
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  12. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,090) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society

    As mentioned, it isn't a strict style, but an authentic Kellerbier is unfiltered and unpasteurized. The yeast in suspension may be giving the beer the impression of sweetness or a creamier feel to it compared to a filtered Pils.
     
  13. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    Kellerbier in Germany historically means the following (and nothing more): beer that is served at the Bierkeller.

    typically these are unfiltered. but, as others have said, time and packaging techniques can cause the haze to drop out. did the bottle you drank have a layer of sediment in the bottom (like a Weissbier)?

    also Kellerpils is a made-up marketing term for the most part. in Franconia they'd just say that such a beer is a particularly hoppy Kellerbier.
     
  14. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand Pooh-Bah (5,291) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    To piggy-back on your post, I recall reading in a 'kellerbier' definition that these beers are also young. And being young the yeast likely has not had time to drop out of solution, thus I recall 'hazy' being part of the description and experience. Being served at the cellar or directly from the lagering tank would make the beer as young as it could be. Packaging the beer while young should mean the beer was still hazy, but the yeast could still drop out while on the store shelf. I'll bet the OP's bottle has sediment.
     
  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    exactly. and being served at the keller (which usually belongs to the brewery) typically guarantees that the beer is always served young and fresh (and hazy). bottling (or kegging) and putting the beer on a shelf/in a cooler somewhere to sit typically guarantees that the beer is less young/fresh and thus less hazy/more settled.
     
  16. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Zealot (744) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    Sun King in Indy has an IPA they’re calling “Keller Haze”. They don’t really do hazy IPAs, so this one was pretty clear last time it was on tap. (Everything is centrifuged heavily, if not filtered, from what I can tell. Even their beers that are classified as New England style on Untappd aren’t particularly hazy usually.) I don’t believe there’s anything to differentiate this “keller” IPA from a plain ol’ unfiltered IPA. Seems like marketing to me.
     
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  17. johnnybgood1999

    johnnybgood1999 Initiate (0) Oct 31, 2008 Virginia

    There might have been sediment in the bottom. The bottle went in the trash last night, so no way to know now. I will be buying more of this and am curious to check the next bottle I open. Lots of good info from everyone.
     
  18. Ranbot

    Ranbot Pooh-Bah (2,389) Nov 27, 2006 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    If you want another point of reference, Weihenstephaner 1516 Kellerbier may still be on shelves in your area. However, it won't be "young" beer at this point, so you could wait and hope they release it again next year (If I remember correctly it has arrived in the US around February or March the last two years). Otherwise, check your local brewery tap listings and maybe you'll get lucky.
     
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  19. considerbeer

    considerbeer Aspirant (279) Dec 15, 2016 California

    In the United States, using the term ‘keller’ or ‘zwickel’ is pure marketing drivel attempting to convey some level of rusticity. Really, when I see a U.S. brewery use it, I just read it as “we didn’t actually lager this lager.”
     
  20. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I've had many a Kellerbier in Germany. The beers can be a little too fresh sometimes, with Diacetyl or Acetaldehyde. When they are on point they are fabulous, more hop flavor and aroma, maybe a few rough edges left.. They can be slightly hazy - not turbid- to fairly clear.

    In some breweries you have choice of the Helles or Kellerbier. The Helles is clean and brilliantly clear, as it has been filtered. The filtered version is not lagerd longer, they get to a point that meets specs and it goes through the filter.

    Edit I've also had Keller Pilsners, great beers.
     
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