Adding hops at flameout... how long till you chill your wort?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by peter831, Jan 5, 2013.

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  1. peter831

    peter831 Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2012 California

    Sort of a new all grain brewer, was reading a thread on recipe for a DIPA using Nelson hop, the recipe called for adding hops at flameout for 20 minutes.

    I had wondered about this for some time. But thought it was important to chill the wort as soon as possible.

    Seemed like you would not get much aroma if you added and then chilled using a plate chiller.

    A suggestion was that i could whirlpool for 10-20 minutes, or steep them for 20.

    Is 20 minutes a common length of time to let aroma hops still after flameout?
     
  2. Treb0R

    Treb0R Aspirant (281) Dec 12, 2012 Oregon

    No hops added at 0 min. left in the boil. Quick cool with wort chiller down to 160-ish then whirlpool with the intended flameout hops. Remove wort chiller and slow cool down to low 60's over the course of 20-30 minutes. Proceed with dryhop 2-3 weeks later.
     
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  3. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    Usually I add my flame out hops and whirlpool for 20-30 minutes, 210 -> 180 F wort at end of whirlpool, then chill to 130, add a second dose if I feel like it or chill straight to pitching going through the hop back (Hopback then chiller).

    IIRC Stone whirlpools with their flameout hops for 90 minutes, and I hear they make some decent beer.
     
  4. peter831

    peter831 Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2012 California

    This process would require you to chill the wort in the boil kettle, correct?

    How can you do this with a plate chiller? Would you pump it back into the boil kettle? to hit 160?

    When you say whirlpool, are you constantly spinning the wort with a spoon to create a whirlpool?

    peter
     
  5. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    I have an Immersion chiller with an extra piece of copper welded on to generate a whirlpool. The kettle ball valve is opened, it goes to a march pump, the pump then pumps the wort back into the chiller piece that is positioned tangential to the kettle ball valve, generating a whirlpool. You can do this by stirring as well.

    I just got a plate chiller for Christmas, so my whirlpools are soon going to re-enter my kettle via a fitting in the kettle lid or a tangential port I drill and fit with pipe fittings in my kettle wall (Going to try option 1 first).
     
  6. koopa

    koopa Poo-Bah (2,040) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey
    Society

    Yes indeed.

    I pump the 212F wort through my plate chiller and back into my boil kettle with a ball valve that is fully opened for maximum flow (cuts down on the plate chillers cooling but speeds up how much wort flows through the chiller) and find that the chilled wort comes out at roughly 80F (at that maximum flow rate). Doing this gets 12 gallons of boiling wort down to say 120F in about 5 minutes with ground water that is in the 60-65F range.

    I add my flameout hops at that temperature. Then I hop stand for only about 10 minutes (might increase that in the future) and then run the wort through the plate chiller one more time (directly into carboys this time) at a slower flow rate that cuts the temp straight down to pitching temperature.
     
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  7. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    If your using a spoon you don't need to whirlpool/stir for 90 minutes.

    There's a lot of things that pro-brewers do that we try to replicate. But sometimes what they do has more to do with their equipment than a process to improve the beer. Whirpool hops probably came about because someone wanted to test adding hops post-boil. So instead of just throwing them in the kettle and waiting they took advantage of a process that they were already using. It takes a good while to transfer the hot wort, so why not just throw them into the whirlpool? It's possible that the 90 minutes in just how long the total process of transfer and whirlpooling takes. 90 minutes is a long time. I think that 20 minutes of non-boil time would be a good start. Just give the kettle a stir ever so often.

    But back to the pump, once I start mine (with about 5 minutes left in the boil) I don't turn it off. Especially with many many ounces of hops in there. It's best to keep all that stuff in motion.
     
  8. peter831

    peter831 Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2012 California

    wow, fascinating, lots of fun things to think about, thanks

    cheers
     
  9. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    90 is the time it takes to empty their whirpool kettle through the heat exchanger, so it is definitely a function of their equipment... I just mentioned it as a reference point.

    20-30 min is the sweet spot I've found on my system (a little longer for bigger beers)... 20 min would be a good jump off point.
     
  10. samtallica

    samtallica Initiate (0) Jul 22, 2010 North Carolina

    I have always added hops at flameout, then just started cooling with my immersion chiller (usually takes 10-20 minutes depending on batch size and the time of year.) I may attempt a hop stand in the near future though.
     
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  11. peter831

    peter831 Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2012 California

    With my plate chiller it takes 8-10 minutes to drain a 5.5 gal batch at 65F but the pump is pushing very little wort and water was on high. I was concerned with the amount of water wasted so I connected my son's immersion chiller inline after the plate chiller and placed in a bucket of ice and water and could run the pump full open and had it chilled in less than 5 min.

    Guess that might not be a good way to add flame out hops.

    Might get a piece of tubing and run the pump back into the boil kettle to chill to 160.

    I did see a nice video from one of the hop chemists saying that most of the aroma compounds were volatile above 160 ish or so. Thats what got me thinking about this in the first place.

    http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/12/26/for-the-love-of-hops-with-stan-hieronymus-beersmith-podcast-52/
     
  12. atomeyes

    atomeyes Aspirant (295) Jul 13, 2011 Ontario (Canada)

    it is my new standard IF my goal is to get hop flavour vs a yeast/cleaner flavour vs bittering

    my one attempt with an IPA was:

    1 oz hop addition at 15 min.
    8 oz various hops at FO.
    whirlpool with the lid off. temp hit 175 and the flame went back on (low) to hold temp at 175. whirlpooled for another 5-10 min.
    wort chiller added and rapid chilled.
    1 oz dry hopped for 14 days, 1 oz dry hopped for 4-5 days.

    not sure if i have the patience to whirlpool at 175 for anything more than 10 min. that was, in total, 30 min of whirlpooling. i'd assume that it is a pretty decent hop flavour extraction. even with my behemoth, you're talking about 0.5 lbs of hops in 6 gallons of wort. whirlpooling will result in a shift in the concentration gradient of the solvent that surrounds the hops, thereby increasing the extraction rate. we're not talking about a sprinkling of oregano in a pasta sauce, where you want it to simmer for 20 minutes. so i would need to see some solid data that shows that whirlpooling at 175 F 90 minutes has 4 times greater extraction then whirlpooling at 175 F for 15 minutes does.

    i'd argue (based on logic, not science or experiment) that most of the hop flavour extraction would come after 5-10 minutes at the desired temperature. the key, though, is the desired temp. Essential are apparently best extracted at 175 F (approx), hence me holding it there for a bit.
     
  13. peter831

    peter831 Initiate (0) Dec 2, 2012 California

    another issue I have with whirlpooling.... I have 3-4 hop bags hanging in the kettle and its not possible to stir the wort without getting everything tangled.

    maybe others are putting the hops directly into the wort and not in bags.
     
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