Another DIPA hopping thread

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by AlCaponeJunior, Feb 20, 2013.

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  1. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    Suppose you were going to brew a PtE-esque IIPA using these fermentables:

    13.25 lbs 2-row
    8 oz carapils/dextrine
    8 oz C40
    10 oz corn sugar

    and you had these hops to choose from...


    How would you hop it / dry hop it?

    estimating 67% efficiency**, 1.075 OG, using California ale yeast

    I have some ideas* but I'd like to hear some suggestions before I post them. I was thinking MOAR HOPS would be a good strategy to use tho. :rolling_eyes:

    I think a good hopstand is in order.

    Price of hops is not an issue as long as it uses these hops. I know the PtE clones usually use columbus, centennial and simcoe but those won't be an option.

    *involving magnum, cascade, willamette, and maybe bravo
    **lowered my estimated efficiency on beersmith to try and dial in my system a bit better. My beers have been coming out with too low an OG by 6-10 points.
  2. Lagger

    Lagger Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2013 California

    super g (or bravo)

    Dual dry hop:

    But what the hell do I know, I'm just shooting from the hip. Let us know what you decide on!
    AlCaponeJunior likes this.
  3. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    Pliny-esque hop scheme (Roughly based on clone recipe from the elder clone pdf.pdf ):
    3 oz Millenium (90 min)
    0.7 oz Millenium (45 min)
    2 oz Cascade (30 min)
    1 oz Belma (0 min)
    1 oz Millenium (0 min)
    3 oz Bravo (0 min)
    1 oz each Bravo, Cascade, Millenium (12/14 day DH)
    0.3 oz each Bravo, Cascade, Millenium (5 days to go in DH)

    Didn't know Millenium was a Nugget/CTZ offspring until looking it up, but since it is, I subbed it for CTZ in Pliny.

    If doing it my own way:
    FWH Cascade (1 oz), Millenium (2 oz)
    0 min/Whirlpool (30 min): 2 oz Cascade, 1 oz each Millenium, Bravo, Belma, Cluster
    DH 1: 2 Millenium, 1 oz Belma, 1 oz Cluster
    DH 2: 2 oz Bravo, 2 oz Cascade
  4. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    Hmmmmm... Only FWH and FO/hopstand? Interesting!

    Everything is pellets except for magnum and super galena, FWIW. Still I expect to lose a fair amount of beer to hops and will try to start with 5.5 gallons if possible.

    Whatever the results of this thread are will be the hops schedule, then I'll blog it and post a link.

    BTW I'm going to brew this one in the 8 gallon fermenter bucket. I'm making a big starter and it's gonna have a lot of fermentables, and overflowing is not an option. :rolling_eyes:
  5. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Zealot (579) Nov 6, 2007 California

    Had to look up serebrianka. Definitely don't bother with those in a DIPA.

    Bitter with Magnum (or maybe super galena), then flavor/aroma with cascade, millennium, and maybe Belma. Those other hops just aren't really DIPA hops unless you are going for something a bit out there.
  6. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    I have the beer dujour PDF, BTW.

    I was thinking of more of a hop-bursting type schedule with magnum at 60 (or maybe 90 would be better for this one?). However, barfdiggs schedule is intriguing me! I might have to go with it!

    Doing it barfdiggs way on my system I get...

    122 IBUs.

    I'm not opposed to this level of IBUs, especially since 100 vs 122 should be pretty much undetectable anyway.
  7. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    Yeah I was thinking of using those serebrianka hops in my next blonde ale. They might go well there, but won't be used here.

    My original plan had 1.5 oz magnum for bittering, hopbursted with cascade, willamette, and bravo. I've done a belma IPA and they might work in this one, but definitely need company.
  8. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    BTW is there need to do a secondary here? I wasn't going to unless someone provides a compelling reason to do so. This was going to be about 3 weeks fermentation time before adding the first dry hops addition. This would leave me at five weeks on primary.
  9. bulletrain76

    bulletrain76 Zealot (579) Nov 6, 2007 California

    Why are you waiting for three weeks to dry hop? A week should be more than enough time if you pitch enough healthy yeast.
    barfdiggs likes this.
  10. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    I could easily speed it up, if appropriate. I just figured a bigger beer would require a bit longer. I usually do about 1.5-2 weeks primary, then dry hop for about a week. If that's good enough then hey, I get to drink it sooner. I haven't done a DIPA before so I'd rather err on the side of caution. But then that's why you discuss these things, to learn and improve your processes.

    I've already started the yeast starter. I plan to grow it till saturday afternoon, then chill overnight and decant on sunday morning before brew time. Of course I'll re-warm to just below wort temperature before pitching.
  11. oregone

    oregone Disciple (357) Jul 2, 2008 Oregon

    That's more time than necessary. For big hoppy beers, time is important as eventually you start losing some of the kettle flavor and aromatics.
    With a proper pitch and yeast health, a week should be enough time for fermentation. If it's done at that point, and it should be, cold crash overnight and add dry hops. Or, take the Firestone route and add the dry hops at that point and some more a few days later. Will give you a different effect with some yeast still in suspension at first as the yeast metabolize some of the hop compounds forming different aromas.

    My input on hopping schedule:

    FWH Magnum (90 minutes) target about 30 IBU (you'll get a lot of bitterness from the late additions)

    Cascade and Willamette at 10 (3oz mix, 2/3 Cascade)

    Belma and Willamette at Flame Out (3oz, 2/3 Belma)

    Chill to 170F as quickly as possible
    3oz Cascade for 30-60 minutes

    DH 1: Cascade and Willamette (2/3 Cascade) added as fermentation finishes (say, at one week)

    DH 2: Cascade and Belma (2/3 Cascade) added 3 days after first dry hop (leave first DH in)
    Keg/bottle 3 days later

    Edit: saw the note on Millenium being a CTZ offspring. I might sub some of that in here. Maybe for the first Willamette additions. Willamette and Cascade are hardly 'punchy' hops and that might steer this away from being a bit green or herbal. I'm just guessing on the Belma description too. Haven't tried.
  12. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    I'll have to put this into beersmith. It's very close to the one I already put in there for my own recipe, but you've chosen different hops. MOAR HOPS is a common theme here tho... :grinning:

    I have done an all belma IPA, linky below:

    The description is in the comments. I'm at the college and teh interwebz are very slow right now so ... :rolling_eyes:
  13. oregone

    oregone Disciple (357) Jul 2, 2008 Oregon

    The Cascade and Willamette combo is some serious throwback NW style. It works, and makes tasty beer, but it's a different beast than current hopping trends. The update with Belma and/or Millenium could make it More interesting.
    I don't generally believe you NEED that much hops to make a good DIPA. But, I usually use a fair bit, and given that your flavor and aroma hops contain a lot of 'milder' variety, it may help kick it up.
    And judging by your comments on the all Belma brew, this may be a good way to try mixing it with other hops.

    Edit: and I wouldn't necessarily go by what your software says re: bitterness/ibu.
    Those sizable late additions will give more than they generally assume.
    With the transition to later hopping, I've been more targeting 60 ibu as opposed to 100+. Supposedly you can assume around 15% utilization from whirlpool additions (system dependent). This has given me a better level of bitterness. Haven't done the numbers yet myself.
    Very dependent on FG and recipe though for apparent bitterness. I go lean and dry. With that much crystal, you could probably bump it up.
  14. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    Don't forget there's sugar in there too, 10 oz. I don't know if that adds to apparent bitterness or not. But yes, with the crystal I intend to bump it up with MOAR HOPS.

    I haven't been paying much attention to bitterness/ibu or GU:BU. should I, and why?
  15. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    The drier the beer is, the more it accentuates bitterness. The one hard thing to get just right is the balance of malt flavor and bitterness, too much caramel & or sweetness and it gets weird, to little malt and it just tastes like a bitter hop pellet. Pliny does a good job of having a little bit of clean malt, that lets the hops just shine (Heady Topper and any Alpine IPA I've had (Duet, Nelson) do a great job of being in balance).

    BU:GU for a DIPA, not even worth looking at. Whether its an 8% or 10% DIPA, you'll most likely still be up against the Alpha Acid solubility limit (you'll pick up some beta acids from dry hopping which can give you a little bitterness kick).
  16. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    Well hopefully since I got the grain bill from RR's clone recipe, it'll have the right balance for all the MOAR HOPS that I'm conspiring to put in.

    It's just a matter of deciding between barfdiggs's early bitter bomb, FO hops blast method or oregone/my early bitter, hop burst late method.
  17. Treb0R

    Treb0R Aspirant (232) Dec 12, 2012 Oregon

    super-galena early on
    super-galena, cascade, and millenium for late additions and dryhop

    90 or 60/30/warm hopstand/DH
  18. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    I just realized that my mash tun is 0.5 gallons too small for this amount of grain. It's only a five gallon mash tun, recipe calls for 5.5 gallons total mash volume. Obviously it's going to be completely full, but my ratios will be a little off. More sparge water to reach the needed boil volume may lower OG a little. Any advice or words of wisdom?

    Well I'm throwing caution to the wind and trying barfdiggs hops schedule. Mainly because it's already put into beersmith and I don't feel like adding any more variants right now. :sunglasses:
  19. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    Mash thicker and sparge a little more?

    Nice. At least this way, if it comes out weird, you can blame it on me :slight_smile: Let me know when its done, we can do an IPA swap, as I'll have a couple ready around the same time.
  20. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Poo-Bah (2,077) May 21, 2010 Texas

    Just a follow-up report here:

    Popped the first test bottle today, smells and tastes wonderful! Lots of fruity hops, especially in the nose. The exact dry hop timing schedule didn't get followed (wound up leaving it in there two extra days because I couldn't get out there to bottle), but that seems to have had no noticeable effect. The aroma is wonderful. Head and lacing are great. Slightly hazy light orange-ish color (that might clear some if I leave them in the fridge for a couple days before drinking). That's the good news, the beer is a success.

    Now the self-critical, honest assessment part. Hops flavor is "a little muddled." (Aroma is about perfect). That doesn't mean it's bad, in fact far from it, the taste is wonderfully hoppy, it's just not quite as "clean" as I imagined. Well, I was imagining PtE, but we knew that wasn't going to happen because I used different hops and didn't follow the clone hopping schedule. I'm not completely sure what I mean by "clean" but PtE and Hop Stoopid are "clean" in my book, and hopslam and Dale's Pale Ale are more "muddled." (Don't get me wrong, both hopslam and Dale's are wonderful beers, I'm just trying to find descriptors that match my experience and get across what I'm trying to say). Stone IPA I'd rate "in the middle" between clean and muddled.

    The "most" honest thing I can say about this beer is that it's NOT my best IPA (or hoppy beer) to date. My best IPA to date remains cascade/willamette IPA, a partial mash batch I brewed almost a year ago!

    However, despite being less than perfect, I'm not going to over-criticize myself on this one, because my first attempt at a IIPA is certainly a big success! It's got aroma, hops bite, a little warming from the ETOH, and looks pretty darn good. I guarantee every bottle will get drank with a smile! :grinning:

    I can see now why the "standard" advice for newbies is NOT to try and make a IIPA until they have some batches under their belt. I'm on perhaps my 30th batch since I started and I just tackled this style for the first time. I'm glad I waited. There were a lot of considerations for this beer that I wasn't prepared for when I first started brewing. Noobs, make a regular IPA or hoppy pale ale, WAIT to make a IIPA. You'll be glad you did.
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