Any ideas on how to stop lame boxes from showing up? Lame BIF box list?

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by readbaron, Dec 14, 2012.

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  1. readbaron

    readbaron Initiate (0) May 12, 2010 Illinois

    A couple guys I know recently got some pretty horrible BIF boxes. I've been pretty fortunate - I've only had one turd show up. But that one made me angry/cautious enough that I rarely participate in BIFs these days, and I know a couple stand up traders that have completely stopped doing them for the same reason.

    So, I thought I'd reach out to the communitty and see if anybody had a good idea on how to prevent this. My instinct would be to start a lame BIF box list. Obviously, it's not the same thing as a bad trader list. The sender did ship a box, and often fulfills the requirements - but, like porn, everybody knows it when you see it. The kind with limited/no wants, and that juuuuuust fulfills the oz requirements (or even worse - that fails to meet the stated criteria). Having one would make a lot easier for BIF organizers to exclude these people, and everybody has more incentive to ship out awesome boxes.

    Thoughts? Other ideas would be welcome.
    Gehrig13, ComRock12, usofar and 3 others like this.
  2. OneBeertoRTA

    OneBeertoRTA Initiate (0) Jan 2, 2010 California

    Just up the requirements to 2 years on BA and/or 25+ trades.

    If someone with an expansive trade history is sending turd boxes that's just messed up.
  3. readbaron

    readbaron Initiate (0) May 12, 2010 Illinois

    That would shut out a lot of good people. And, though it's messed up, it certainly happens.
  4. pschul4

    pschul4 Initiate (0) Jan 7, 2011 Illinois

    I hate to say it with as much work as they already put in but the organizers really need to do their research. I've seen the same guy send a couple bad BIF boxes and it's totally against the spirit of a BIF. I have yet to join a BIF because I know I don't have the beers or money capable of knocking someones socks off the way I would like to. In the future I plan on doing many BIFs so I can give back to this community that has given me so much
    atoulouk, Bluecane and robbiemoy13 like this.
  5. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    I basically look at it the same way I do with trades. You "win some, you lose some". What I mean is sometimes you get the minimum agreed upon box, and others you get totally blown away by someones generosity.
    iadler, jamescain, TWStandley and 7 others like this.
  6. readbaron

    readbaron Initiate (0) May 12, 2010 Illinois

    It's definitely a roulette wheel. From my perspective, knowing that there are a few turds in the punch bowl usually decreases my level of generosity.
  7. DSlim71

    DSlim71 Initiate (0) Mar 3, 2010 New Jersey

    What if the box doesn't even meet the criteria? I'm pretty sure the box that prompted this thread didn't even come close.
    ASUBeer, pschul4 and Good_Trader like this.
  8. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    This, 1000 times over. I've done a lot of BIFs. Some boxes have absolutely floored me with the contents, and others have left me thinking that the person really didn't put much effort in. Usually they are pretty good though, and often awesome. I know I personally always try to send a nice box, and at the end of the day I think the vast majority of active BIF-ers do the same. So, when I do get a bit of a dud, I just move on and realize that my next one will be better.

    The only BIF boxes I really get upset about are the ones where you are getting 6 month old stale IPA's, really shitty beers, or a box full of beers I could just run out and buy on my local shelves. (The occasional one happens by accident and is not a problem, but sometimes people pay no attention to distribution)

    I've also run a few BIFs, and one of the responsibilities of a good BIF master is to dig into the noob-ish looking participants. A quick scan of their past BIF history and/or a couple of BM's to trading partners usually clears up ambiguity about the kind of trader they are. Any concerns, and they just don't make the cut. That said, borderline cases are always going to slip through.

    Lastly, I will say that people around here are typically awesome about when a bad box lands. I know I've sent out a few boxes to people who have gotten screwed, and I've seen it happen lots of other times from other people.

    So no - really no need for a bad BIF-er list. Word gets around fast in this small community.
  9. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    That's a separate issue, and is effectively the same thing as not following through properly on a trade. That is worthy of the bad trader list if the person won't rectify the situation. (Sometimes people do honestly forget a rule or something)
    AleWatcher likes this.
  10. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    That is a different story. Everyone who joins a BIF agrees to meet certain criteria. Those people should be either banned or something from future BIFs.

    What I mean is the whole "lame" box thing. What is to say that person didn't try hard, meet all criteria, and put together what he thought was a killer box - but that persons whales turns out to be garbage to the recipient. Some people think KBS, BCBS, etc.. are whales. They are shelf beers to others.
  11. Hanzo

    Hanzo Savant (975) Feb 27, 2012 Virginia

    Did they meet the requirements\rules of the BIF? If so then they certainly don't deserve to be blacklisted just because you didn't like your box.

    For reference, can you post the rules of the BIF you got the turd in and what was in the box? I am assuming since you were about to put the person on a public list that you won't mind sharing this info.
  12. DSlim71

    DSlim71 Initiate (0) Mar 3, 2010 New Jersey

  13. Hanzo

    Hanzo Savant (975) Feb 27, 2012 Virginia

    Yeah, the sender in that case clearly broke the rules, and deserves to be blacklisted until he makes it right.
  14. readbaron

    readbaron Initiate (0) May 12, 2010 Illinois

    That's a fairly broad and false assumption. I started the thread to get feedback from the community, and see if I was off base, not to start a witch hunt. Clearly, it is "acceptable" to send out what the majority of people would see as lame boxes, as you can find them in any BIF. I'm looking for a way to improve it.
  15. readbaron

    readbaron Initiate (0) May 12, 2010 Illinois

    How? If there's a truly bad box where someone breaks the rules - sure people chip in and fix it. But, "the old IPA, random cellar cleaning, box of stuff you can get of the shelf" boxes happen, and in the BIFs I've been in, the recipient just sucks it up. From the responses to the question, it appears that I'm in the minority in considering this a problem. If so, we can let this die. I just thought I'd pose the question and see what others thought.
  16. 1koolspud

    1koolspud Initiate (60) Jun 30, 2008 Illinois

    I know a lot of good BIFers who have given up from being on the short end of the stick too many times. If that's not a problem to anyone, then the boxes will continue fading into mediocrity.
  17. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    A subpar box publicly attaches itself to a person's reputation. If they start regularly sending out crappy boxes, nobody is going to include them in their BIFs anymore. If the BIF master isn't paying attention, that's a separate issue. Running a BIF is harder than it looks, and not everybody does a great job at it.

    Edit: After seeing the issue, this was clearly a case of rule violation, which is very different from simply sending a subpar box.
    2beerdogs likes this.
  18. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Yeah, I say he gets a chance to rectify it, but falling that far flat of the requirements is a straight up bad trade.
    ASUBeer likes this.
  19. Bad_Trader

    Bad_Trader Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2012 Namibia

    Repeat Offender:
    Gosox8787, dblab33 and StarRaptor like this.
  20. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    The example posted is just a straight up bad trader in my opinion. He did not follow the requirements of the BIF he entered, which would be no different than not sending agreed upon bottles in a regular trade.

    I think we are comparing two different scenarios here. A lame box is not the same as a box that does not meet requirements.
  21. Rempo

    Rempo Disciple (348) Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    Signups should include a BM to the coordinator:

    - Link to posts containing your previous BIF hauls.
    - Link to a BIF thread you participated in where you had fun and didn't just post your haul.
    - How many BIFs are you currently in?
    - How many BIFs have you signed up for that haven't yet started?

    Coordinator can take it from there.
    Kelp, Mista, libbey and 7 others like this.
  22. readbaron

    readbaron Initiate (0) May 12, 2010 Illinois

    Wouldn't having a list make that a lot easier? To alleviate some of the logical concerns above, you could have a panel of three people who would all have to agree that a box was lame - and then have to send out two lame boxes to oficially be on the list. That way noobs wouldn't be unfairly punished for a good faith try, and you wouldn't punish somebody for simply having an unreasonable target.
  23. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    Yeah, it sucks to get a mediocre box, but I've also been spared from getting a truly awful box. I don't know if there's really anything you can do about it, BIF culture is typically one where you just "lump it" and move on. I don't really know if there's a good way to address this without ruining the nature of the transaction.
  24. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Well, I think the ultimate solutions is to finally get a trader feedback system in place.

    My only issue with a "bad BIFer" list is it is effectively a Bad Trader black ball. Who really wants to trade with a guy on a bad anything list? Rating BIFs (beyond the rules) is kind of like rating extras - we all have unspoken expectations, but it's unfair to really peg anybody to it.

    All of that said, my opinion is starting to sway to your side after reading a few of these links. Those boxes aren't terrible, they're just not following the rules, which is really odd.
  25. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

  26. pschul4

    pschul4 Initiate (0) Jan 7, 2011 Illinois

    I don't think its that they dont consider the "bad BIF-ers" a problem. It's just that its such a small percentage of the BIF-ing community that they know their next hundred boxes will be absolutely killer just like the ones they send out
    cbeer88 likes this.
  27. Bad_Trader

    Bad_Trader Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2012 Namibia

  28. CruisaC

    CruisaC Initiate (0) Sep 3, 2010 Ohio

    Yet he continues to participate over and over in BIFs? Fool me once, shame on you......

    Quick search reveals an issue of being spread a little thin?
  29. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    I think this may be the case. It looks like he is participating in every single active BIF at the moment.
  30. quirkzoo

    quirkzoo Initiate (0) Jul 7, 2011 Colorado

    Seriously, he is a scary dude. I would not trade nor fuck with him.

  31. ASUBeer

    ASUBeer Initiate (0) Nov 4, 2011 North Carolina

    Sign up for every BIF
    Send questionable boxes
    Receive great boxes

    Wow, that is really shitty.
  32. franklinn

    franklinn Initiate (0) May 29, 2012 Vermont

    Not the LNBA secret Santa bif, thankfully.
    davey101 and robinsmv like this.
  33. buffs9

    buffs9 Initiate (0) Apr 28, 2008 Colorado

    Not sure this guy who keeps getting called out has a defense at this point, but I think it's tricky w/ new BIFers. I know my first box wasn't the best (def. met all the requirements) then I rec'd from jodan, who blew me up. At that point it clicked and my boxes have gotten considerably better, imo (maybe someone can dispute this?)

    It's a tricky situation as it's easy to hit the minimums, which is what is actually req'd but the unwritten rules seem to be more along the lines of doubling or tripling what's req'd. Maybe more Noob BIFs to get peoples' feet wet and some monitoring of people who actually fall short of the minimums?
    I like BIFs and dig going over the top and seeing others do the same

    but at the same time I can see people saying/thinking...
    "if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?"
    sacrelicio, adamdd, Duff27 and 5 others like this.
  34. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Agreed. I have less issue with his "box quality" (albeit a little weak), and much greater issue with just flat out not hitting the guidelines. The movie thing is mindblowing - I mean, movies cost less than beer nowadays, so it's not even a money issue.

    The best thing he can do is prove himself with killer boxes in the remaining open BIF's.

    (BTW, you send great boxes)
    dblab33 likes this.
  35. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    Weird, my two previous BIF targets, one of whom was the target of the other in another BIF, posted one after the other in this thread in which I entered to say that I have received stellar boxes and boxes that were like, "Oh." I don't know if I've ever had a haul that was so lame that I'd actually say something about it, but I did receive a box this year with beers that I can get in my area. Rubs me the wrong way, but dems the breaks, and it comes back around to me frequently enough through other generous trade partners that I'm not losing any sleep over it. Repeat offenders? Vet them please, BIF organizers.

    Cbeer88 and Buffs9, I hope my boxes to you guys weren't lame. I tried real hard!
  36. stupac2

    stupac2 Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2011 California

    That's generally how I feel. I typically go by the "send a box I'd like to receive" metric, and judging by the typical responses I get that works fine. But I also don't tend to go way overboard on ounce requirements. So I'd never be butthurt about "only" getting the minimum ounces, as long as those ounces were filled with high-quality beers.

    My main problem in BIFs is that I tend to forget to put my name in there. I also often forget SWAG (I still owe at least two people SWAG, DON'T WORRY IT'S STILL COMING).
  37. Pelican5

    Pelican5 Initiate (0) Feb 4, 2012 California

    If the box meets the minimum requirements its "technically" sufficient. But the whole point of BIF's is to stoke someone out beyond the norm, so its a crap shoot. I sent an anonymous box out to a guy who got shorted in a BIF I was in to make up for the "technically" sufficient haul. Was one of the funner boxes to put together :slight_smile:
    duceswild, Lordkrystic and match1112 like this.
  38. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (716) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Your box rocked! See all the 'likes' on it:

    :slight_smile: That was a textbook 'nailing a BIF' box.

    I feel bad that I said anything (vague as I was) now. I've done a lot of BIFs, and any that I've had any issue with seem to be from people who aren't even around anymore. (go figure!)
    JebediahScooter likes this.
  39. WagonCircler

    WagonCircler Initiate (120) May 15, 2011 New York

    Ive been in a few and I think Im done with them. So far I would have rather had the boxes I sent then the boxes I received. One time the dude I sent a (IMO) great box to ended up being that Swuntly guy who ripped off a bunch of people. Another time a guy told me he was going to send a follow up box and never did. I'd rather just skip them, personally. I like the idea tho.
    ASUBeer likes this.
  40. StarRaptor

    StarRaptor Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2010 California

    I've been let down in a lot of BIFs lately but don't want to call out anyone. I've learned my lesson that BIFs just aren't for me
    MarkIntihar, huadog, ASUBeer and 2 others like this.
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