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Anyone trade less because of the new trade forum?

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by OneBeertoRTA, Sep 11, 2012.

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  1. nc41

    nc41 Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I BM when I see a guy looking for a beer like Furious that's easily gettable from an online store. I have no clue if he found a trade partner so I offer up an easy solution like france44. It's up to him to trade or buy from there, but there's a lot of new guys who don't know there are great on line options too. Why trade your stash away and have to go thru the hassle of boxing and shipping when you have a place that has great prices, doesn't gouge on shipping and is world class, and legal. I've used a few on line stores and all were really good, but as long as I can get Furious/Pliny/Blind Pig when I want I use this method, either way shipping to and or from CA costs, there's no way around this fact.
    cfh64 likes this.
  2. Archemedies

    Archemedies Dec 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    You have to remember that some states forbid buying online from out of state sources. Some online stores ignore these laws, but most don't.
  3. nc41

    nc41 Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I agree, they are strict, not on the sell list and it's a no buy, good catch.
  4. errantnight

    errantnight Jul 7, 2005 Iowa
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    You're crazy. It's always been that way.
    ShogoKawada likes this.
  5. OneBeertoRTA

    OneBeertoRTA Jan 2, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

  6. OneBeertoRTA

    OneBeertoRTA Jan 2, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

  7. Overlord

    Overlord Jun 28, 2007 California

    I think the new forum and the forum rules are hurting more than just trading: it's decreasing the site's traffic and its overall popularity. While search metrics are not my specialty (as opposed to evaluating the relative worth of beers), a quick glance at Alexa.com displays what appears to be a fairly persistent downward trend for every statistic of importance. The number of people who are visiting this site from search engines, as opposed to dedicated users, is WAY up. Looks like that statistic is up 200-400% since The Crash(tm). Page views are down, time spent on site is down, everything is down, and many of the numbers are not "blips on the radar." Punch up the year long graph and you won't need a slide rule to see what's happening.

    Their site. Their rules. Their vision of how they want things to be. In my opinion, people come to forums to jibber jabber. Take that away and you slowly drain a community of its identity. And our identity was that of cantankerous one-upping homers who loved to proudly display our hoards whilst simultaneously mocking and deriding the efforts of others. And, of course, all the while bemoaning the state of affairs we reveled in creating. Without that, what have we become?

    What, indeed.
  8. MordorMongo

    MordorMongo Jul 19, 2009


    Or +1 to all of it

    Or both.

    A forum sans tomfoolery and asshattery is destined to be a dead forum.

    I blame Backfat. (Generically for everything)
  9. nc41

    nc41 Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I like the older format better. When your done a simple trade could be shut down, and guys would know it was a done deal. I feel the need to respond to any BM, so even after a trade is done I'm still getting requests.
  10. glitchedmind

    glitchedmind May 8, 2012 California

    You are able to delete the thread once the trade is completed. It's up on the top right under thread tools. =)
  11. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Why can feedback not be given via BM? Can people not say the same thing to someone on a personal level as they can publicly? You can still shit on people's ISO's...you just can't do it in front of an audience.
  12. maximum12

    maximum12 Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    This has been debated ad nauseum, but I'll try one more time.

    One word: newbies. People used to learn from watching the forum. What's appropriate. What's not. What's ridiculous. What will get you on people's "list". What ballpark you should be offering for that hot new one-off. Etc.

    People whine & moan about the "new" traders listing their locals & asking for the moon. Fair enough. What's not fair is that many of these same people don't want comments. Well - how the hell are the newbies supposed to learn jack? I learned by watching what went down in the forum. Now, newbies coming & doing the same are learning exactly what's written there: "ISO: Hunahpu's FT: Dale's Pale Ale. Hey, jballerkrunk just posted that & he's been around three months, that sounds great!"

    We're no longer educating our newbies. And in the long run, that's going to hurt.
  13. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    The newbies learn from watching the forum? That makes me laugh a bit. Learn what? That the average individual only responds to belittle or criticize the ever living fuck out of the OP? If most people in here were truly constructive in their criticism, we'd still have the ability to reply. But people aren't kind. They aren't couth. And they sure as fuck aren't here to help out the new guy. It's easy to learn. We're adults. You put up an ISO, you hear crickets. You change your ISO. If you can't put together an ISO that gets you anything in return, then you'll eventually go the way of the dinosaur and be extinct in these parts. I'm so grateful that bad ISO's, like the very ones people bitch about, quickly find their way on page 2...instead of lingering about on the first page because everyone and their grandmother finds it of paramount importance to make sure the OP, n00b or not, knows that they're a fucking idiot with their request. Again...if the feedback was civil...replies would be a great tool.

    Also...again...I refuse to believe that you can't accomplish with a BM what you can with a public response. Your response is to the OP. No one else needs to see it as it's not relevant to them. If you send them a BM and they're an asshole, well, you know not to trade with them right off the bat. They'll learn. Trial by fire. They don't need their hands held, and the rest of us don't need our ISO's relegated to page two while everyone turns the bad ISO's into a gong show for their own personal entertainment. I've had plenty of people who were courteous enough to send me BM's soliciting their advice. I appreciated it. I also appreciated them leaving my ISO the fuck alone. I wonder if anyone knows just how many of these deals get done, despite the collective braintrust here thinking the offers are outlandish. I've gotten lots of "unthinkable" trades done. Many probably wouldn't have been done, however, if the clownshoes that inundate this place were allowed to shit all over them and scare people away.

    Fact is...when someone has something critical to say about me...I appreciate it when they pull me aside and say their piece. I do NOT appreciate it when they call me out in front of my friends and peers while they're closely gathered around. Like I said though...some people just like their opinions to be heard by all...particularly when they're being harsh or critical. Makes them feel like 10x the individual they are.

    This thread alone gets ruthless enough...and it's evidence that this same kind of discourse doesn't belong in someone's ISO/FT.
    cosmicevan, cfh64, cavedave and 2 others like this.
  14. dvelcich

    dvelcich Feb 6, 2008 Illinois

    You're the one dropping f-bombs in response to a guy's legitimate answer to your question. Maybe we should just keep people like you out of the ISO/FT.
  15. Knifestyles

    Knifestyles Jun 7, 2005 New York

    Sometimes it's really difficult to get your point across without the use of profanity.

    Wait.....no it's not.......
  16. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Sorry for the colorful language. Just something I feel strongly about. No disrespect intended. I don't respond much to the ISO/FT's in public unless it's to say "Let the man trade his beer."
  17. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    No...not difficult at all. Matter of habit. People are free to dislike me because of it. I have no issues with that.
  18. maximum12

    maximum12 Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    I don't want you to think I'm picking on you in front of your peers, but I'll wager you could find a small village of people around here who sat around, watched the trading forum a while, got an idea of what went for what, then jumped in. Education. "Refusing to believe that" is tantamount with being so in love with your position that you absolutely, neverneverneverbangyourheadonthewall will ever listen to another opinion.

    Your last sentence is false for precisely the same reason. Sure, there are plenty of ass-clowns around, or those who wanted to get their unfunny meme into every third ISO: thread, but there also a ton of generous & experienced people around who'd chime in & try to lend a hand. You seem to have completely discounted this majority in a fit of blind rage. So be it.
    Gosox8787 and OneBeertoRTA like this.
  19. Overlord

    Overlord Jun 28, 2007 California

    You raise some interesting points. None of them are valid, but they are interesting. You seem to believe that because you don't like the way other people phrase things, or that you prefer to be belittled in private rather than publicly, that your personal preferences are an appropriate way of measuring how an ostensibly public forum should be run. They are not.

    I believe in free in open communication. That includes message boards. The site was better off (and way more fun) when we could not only mock others, but be mocked in turn. We should ask for the ability to state what we want in bold text and hang it out there for all to see. Doesn't this site supposedly support freedom and the American Way? If we forget our principles, then the terrorists and communists have won.

    Great revolutions began with handing out muckraising pamphlets and nailing scathing rebuttals to town halls and church doors for all to see, not with politely worded private messages written on doilies and delivered via private mail.

    Beeradvocate grew and prospered in large part due to the clamoring, arguing voices of its feckless and vitriolic users. This endless discord was the fruit upon which we all fed. And yes, that fruit was soured at time by cackling nitwits, scree scree, and unctious braying, but that is the price of freedom.

    So say we all.
  20. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    I agree with both paragraphs. "Refusing to believe" is a bit...strong. However, I've seen little in terms of constructive responses, relative to the derogatory ones...to suggest that the bulk of public responses to ISO/FT's will ever be more beneficial than detrimental to what the OP is trying to accomplish. Yes...there are numerous BA's who are probably floating about the ISO/FT forum looking to nurture noob traders, looking to show them the light so they can evolve into productive traders who understand how to post an equal value trade. In meantime...there are 20x more BA's walking around with one of those padded mallets looking to play whack-a-mole and smack a clueless n00b around. I was not looking to discount the majority. The majority, don't say anything at all. I'm just saying that the derogatory comments, even when in the minority, are enough to derail any ISO/FT where they're present. A person can positively aid a noob by sending them a polite BM. Fact. If they're unresponsive to your BM, they're likely not going to be any more responsive to similar words made out in the open. Most people simply don't want to be openly confronted or criticized...whether your intentions are well intended or not.

    I'm of the opinion that I don't think anyone needs to chime in offering their opinion about whether something can, won't, should, or shouldn't get done...unless the OP solicited just such an opinion. If you're interested in an offer, respond. If you're not...don't. It's the incessant offering of unsolicited opinions (see also threadshitting) that turns that forum into junk. When ISO's are allowed to drop to page two, unimpeded by unproductive responses, that they end up where they should be. Out of sight. I realize my opinion isn't going to be shared by some or even most...but I'm extremely grateful for the lack of responses. I'm a frequent trader, and I never seem to have issues with getting things done. I was a n00b once upon a time too....and I can promise you one thing: I didn't find the responses found in any ISO/FT's even remotely useful, and it certainly had zero influence on the ISO/FT's I posted. If I wanted aid or help...guess which forum I went to. This one.
    Patrick likes this.
  21. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    You think? That's why it's called an opinion. Yes...because I'm opposed to people belittling one another in public...I think it should be post only, no replies. I don't think my preference should dictate such...I'm simply saying that the current format suits my liking. Were replies permitted, I'd not post ISO's here.

    I believe in being open too. But I believe in some degree of tact as well (despite my often profanity laden posts). I've BM'ed several people with my thoughts on their ISO/FT. I didn't do it publicly, because it often only takes one unsolicited opinion before everyone and their grandmother is chiming in, and the thread is permanently stuck at the top of the forum, far from where it belongs. I must say, I've never read anything that said this site supported freedom or the American way. Just sayin'. Please point me to anything indicating otherwise that I may have glossed over. Not saying it shouldn't be there...but I didn't get the memo if that was the gist. I just think there's a time and place for everything. Sitting in a pew in church during Sunday mass probably isn't the best time to be talking on your cell phone. Nor would it be sitting in the boardroom while your CEO is speaking.

    Some people here just want to watch the world burn. They just want to argue. Not to any productive means...but for the sake of arguing itself.

    By the way, I could barely stop laughing while reading your last two paragraphs. Outstanding.
    Overlord and Patrick like this.
  22. black13

    black13 Apr 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    I only wish I could get the sounds of silence from Levitation, but that seems impossible. Whether it be on here or the FB beer page, he continues to bring my name up. Obsessed?
  23. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    no, amused. you're projecting - your rabid, obsessive lowballing of blabaer is the stuff of legend.

    sorry, but the truth hurts sometimes. :oops:

    YaKnowBrady, DinoStyle and Overlord like this.
  24. Patrick

    Patrick Aug 13, 2007 Massachusetts

    My guess is that if you ignored it, it would eventually stop.
    cosmicevan likes this.
  25. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    he's usually talking about actual behavior of yours. do you see the disparity if he were silenced but you weren't?

    re: lurking more, indeed, people should lurk more and learn how to be good forum users. that little prescriptive bit of truth applies to user behavior, not moderator behavior.

    myself, i'm still for no-reply because it doesn't privilege and perma-bump memefests. i don't care that it "makes it harder for newbs to learn." i also don't care that it makes it harder to shame scammers and exploiters. try harder to shame them. if you really think their ISO:FTs are out of line, PM a mod about it and see if their exploitation threads get deleted (they very well might).
    Rempo likes this.
  26. black13

    black13 Apr 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    Your guess would be wrong! Trolls such as Levitation live for nothing more than attention and annoying people, even when they ask him to move on. Fortunately, I have a life outside of my parents basement.
  27. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    when you encounter people outside of your parents basement and say "please move on, i do not like the things you're saying!" do the people you're addressing go silent? or begin talking about things you like?

    that doesn't sound like the real world to me.
    Patrick likes this.
  28. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    so when:

    - you mention you have a daughter named isabelle so someone please send you an isabelle
    - you mention your mom passed away from cancer so someone please send you a framboise for a cure
    - you lowball ad nauseum for blabaer (inspired in part by surgery for your wife)

    all of that is ok. it's not underhanded heart-string tugging, attention-seeking, or annoying.

    but if i point it out, i'm an obsessive troll.

    if you don't like being called on your bullshit, maybe stop posting bullshit? i have rarely seen anyone work so hard to brag about his expansive cellar and yet avoid making a fair offer.

    /my dad's named dave and my mom was struck by a yellow bus. my son is named framboos.
  29. Overlord

    Overlord Jun 28, 2007 California

    It doesn't sound like it.

    Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing.

    I want you to add: "an ostensibly public internet message board" to the two items you have listed. Now, which of those three things is not like the others?

    Look, it's not entirely about wanting to trade-shit or embarrass people. It's not about the money, either. It's about sending a message. This forum needs better and more entertaining discussions (like, frankly, the ones we used to have). And I want to give it to them.
    Gosox8787 likes this.
  30. Overlord

    Overlord Jun 28, 2007 California

    I have not taken much note of you before, black13, but your posts in conjunction with Levitation's observations have now attracted my attention. I will be following your future endeavors with great interest.
  31. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    I'm sure this is what most people miss. I just don't understand why entertaining discussions can't be had anywhere else but in someone's ISO/FT's. It just looks like people need someone to make fun of...or otherwise need someone else's expense at whom they can otherwise have their fun. Seems pretty petty and childish. You can send a message. Privately. Mission accomplished...except you don't have any fun. It makes it seem like sending the message isn't the point. It's the fun derived from the manner in which you send it. Again...if the responses were productive, the ability to reply to ISO's would probably still be active. But it's a gong show, so it's not.
  32. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    while i have a strong suspicion that i disagree with a lot of overlord's implied esthetic judgments, i have to admit that the ISO:FT threadshitting was significantly funnier than much of the forced-meme wannabe comedy elsewhere at BA.

    at the same time, that's sort of like pointing out that something is more fun than being hit directly in the face with an aluminum bat.
    franklinn likes this.
  33. black13

    black13 Apr 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    Let this be my last response to Levitation.
    Yes my daughter is named Isabella! Yes I made a funny diatribe about Blabaer and my wife's surgery. All fun and games.
    Yes my mom did die from cancer. Sept 28th to be exact! You crossed the line on that one! The next time you feel like making a reference or statement, how about excluding the death of family members!
    Kuemmelbrau likes this.
  34. OneBeertoRTA

    OneBeertoRTA Jan 2, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

    I'm sensing you had a bad experience in the ISO/FT forum, public humiliation perhaps?

    It's much easier in the new forum for the auctioners to throw out vague ISO's and sit back waiting for the best offer. In the old world, I miss those guys who would chime in to tell them that their BM offer of the exact ISO beers was turned down or the occasional guy that stated their are 75 cases on the floor at the Bevmo across the street...
    domtronzero and Overlord like this.
  35. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    dude... you mentioned it, and tried to milk it. that's not something i could have known unless you had posted it.

    sorry for your loss, but don't pretend i crossed the line by mentioning something YOU posted. i've lost family members to cancer and i found your iso shameless, classless, and disrespectful.
  36. Overlord

    Overlord Jun 28, 2007 California


    ASUBeer, Pahn and Gosox8787 like this.
  37. Pahn

    Pahn Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    @auction threads:

    1) report them,

    2) i'm john auctioner. i want to auction off a beer. here's what i do:

    FT: beer i have that i know lots of people want.
    ISO: beer a few orders of magnitude more valuable than my beer.

    1 of 2 outcomes ensue:

    a) i actually get the valuable beer. i then flip-or-drink it.
    b) people PM me "lowballing" my offer, or at least trying to negotiate with me. i take part in "negotiations," ie stall for time as i field other "negotiations." AKA i hold an auction.


    this cannot be policed with rules. you need to call out scammers, and (more importantly!) keep "The Whole Point Of Trading" in mind and not fall for bullshit like that.

    p.s. note, john auction above is a bit of a moron too, since he went to all that trouble and probably just ended up ticking a 5 year old american wild ale or something. tweeted about it, and the 20 people who read the tweet didn't give a shit.


    edit2: Some Trading 101 (Trading 102?) Notes About This Post's Hypothetical

    1) if you see john auction's sleazy ISO, PM him a beer you're willing to give up for the beer he's offering, and the trade goes through, things aren't really going badly. maybe he's not going to be the guy who kills you with extras or sends you an unsolicited box full of your wants, but so what?

    2) if beer continues to get more valuable, note that you also have to, unfortunately, advert to more than just forum etiquette to look out for scammers. e.g. you'd think from my posts that i'm the warmest, most generous man on earth, but maybe i'm a scammer! (dramatic music)
  38. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Actually...no. But I found it distasteful to see people who weren't even remotely interested in the actual ISO/FT teeing off on it because, well...they could. I suppose you're right in regards to vague ISO's and what is blatantly an auction. However...even in ISO's that are clear cut, I've BM'ed offering other things not even listed, and gotten things done. I'm sure LOTS of people "counter" with offers not listed. Is it not an auction then too?

    I admit, there are SOME merits to having replies enabled. And I'm sure SOME people would use them to a productive end.
  39. Pittsky

    Pittsky May 28, 2009 Florida
    Beer Trader

    I don't really get why anyone cares if someone decides to try to "auction" beer anyhow. If you're too dumb to realize you're taking part in an auction and getting had, then you need to wise up. Live and Learn

    As long as all parties are happy and agree on whatever the hell they agree on, even though it's rediculous and lopsided, who gives a shit. Some people really care about beer advocacy and some don't. That's their right i suppose. If they wanna trade solely to mazimize the amount of beer they can get, let em. Don't like it? Don't trade with them. My .2 cents.
  40. Overlord

    Overlord Jun 28, 2007 California

    I do. The beer market is a delicate equilibrium, fueled by a combustible mixture of rarity, hype, greed, teeth gnashing, ethylene glycol, and somewhere on the list taste, smell, etc. These transactions do not exist in a vacuum, they are amalgamated into The Beer Trading Market(tm) and they affect all of us. Folks use these transactions to dictate prices, distort markets, and prevent traders from getting a fair deal.

    It's because of this dynamic that organizations such as the Federation of United California Traders (F.U.C.T.) were originally conceived. And through the iron hand of collective bargaining, fairness for all was ensured. That paradigm has been broken due to the stifling of free and impartial speech from third parties.
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