Are all Sixpoint beers brewed in Brooklyn?

Discussion in 'Mid-Atlantic' started by celfan, Aug 24, 2012.

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  1. celfan

    celfan Savant (1,048) Jul 4, 2004 Vermont

    Or are they contracting out?
  2. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    The cans and some of their draught (in particular, any draught brand that is also canned) are brewed at The Lion in Wilkes-Barre, PA under an alternating proprietorship agreement. The folks at Sixpoint will insist that's not "contract brewing" but most people in the industry would include that sort of arrangement under the terminology.

    They are allowed to not print the cans with that information by taking advantage of a TTB labeling regulation loophole:

    § 7.25 Name and address.

    (a) Domestic malt beverages. (1) On labels of containers of domestic malt beverages there shall be stated the name of the bottler or packer and the place where bottled or packed. The bottler's or packer's principal place of business may be shown in lieu of the actual place where bottled or packed if the address shown is a location where bottling or packing operation takes place. The appropriate TTB officer may disapprove the listing of a principal place of business if its use would create a false or misleading impression as to the geographic origin of the beer.

    ...even thought it seems (given the number of threads on the topic) that it does "create a false or misleading impression as to the geographic origin of the beer".
  3. DSlim71

    DSlim71 Initiate (0) Mar 3, 2010 New Jersey

    I came to respond, but once I saw jesskidden was the last poster, I knew my info would not be needed :wink:
  4. celfan

    celfan Savant (1,048) Jul 4, 2004 Vermont

    sneaky - i knew this stuff was too widely distributed to come out of a brooklyn brewery

    i won't support them
    chippo33 likes this.
  5. dgs

    dgs Initiate (0) Jul 18, 2005 Pennsylvania

    Not trying to change your mind, but I am curious. What part of the arrangement will make you avoid them? I ask because there are and have been quite a few arrangements where beers are not brewed where the brewery calls home.
  6. celfan

    celfan Savant (1,048) Jul 4, 2004 Vermont

    the fact that they purposely hide the information is enough
    chippo33 likes this.
  7. TomasVickerman

    TomasVickerman Initiate (0) May 30, 2008 Pennsylvania

    In my humble opinion....This is SO common in the industry that I would have a hard time saying that they "purposely hide the information".... Goose Island, Bass, boy you name it,... Alot more than I know or can list do the same thing...

    Considering the bulls eye response Jesskidden had, he probably can answer better than I....
    Chaz likes this.
  8. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    The new AB-brewed Bass Ale label says pretty prominently "Product of the USA" and "Baldwinsville, NY" on the label and the Goose Island beers brewed by AB or CBA also state the city (Baldwinsville, Portsmouth, etc). I can think of NO other craft brewers who ever took advantage of that TTB loophole - which is used by the multiplant brewers like AB and MC, Pabst [for M-C's facilities] and Yuengling (there are supposedly no Yuengling labels that state "Tampa, FL" even tho' that brewery is much larger than their PA home).

    Boston Beer Co. long listed actual brewing cities of their contractors -from Pittsburgh in the beginning through to Eden, NC and Rochester, NY at the end, even tho' they had a brewery at the Boston corporate headquarters by the late '80's. Ditto for Brooklyn listing "Utica, NY" and many other craft contracts.

    Sixpoint seems to be unique in not only using the loophole but insisting (in Twitter conversations once linked in the old forums) that they don't "contract brew" (using the "AP is not contract brewing" technicality that ignores common industry usage) and calling The Lion not by name but using expressions like "our facility in PA", etc. Their website says "Brooklyn" multiple times, last I looked no mention of "Wilkes-Barre". Apparently Sixpoint was once very critical of the Brooklyn Brewery for depending on Matt for a large percentage of their production, so the criticism is all the more just.

    I've got no problem with contract brewing or even using dba names, but trying to deceive the consumer to maintain an image rubs me the wrong way.
  9. TomasVickerman

    TomasVickerman Initiate (0) May 30, 2008 Pennsylvania

    LOL... I see that I certainly said the right thing by mentioning your post :slight_smile:... It appears I also stand somewhat corrected!!!
  10. MagnusBrewing

    MagnusBrewing Initiate (0) Mar 26, 2009 New Jersey

    I honestly avoid their canned offerings just because I feel like the quality isn't what it used to be when I had them in Brooklyn. Not sure if anyone else agrees with that.
    JackHorzempa and ant880 like this.
  11. ClockworkOrange

    ClockworkOrange Pooh-Bah (2,116) Feb 19, 2006 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    "The new AB-brewed Bass Ale label says pretty prominently "Product of the USA"...

    Although it's been years since I've last had it, I believe Beck's is now made in the U.S. as well (St. Louis I think).
  12. celfan

    celfan Savant (1,048) Jul 4, 2004 Vermont

    had no idea about Florida. do they have their own brewery or are the contracting out?
  13. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Yuengling bought a brewery in Tampa that Schlitz built in the 1950's (with a capacity of 1.5m bbl/yr at one point) when Stroh was going out of business in the late 1990's.

    It had also been a Pabst facility for a few years in the 1980's, when Pabst and Stroh "traded" breweries - St. Paul (ex-Hamm's) for Tampa - to settle some anti-trust concerns. Stroh later bought it back as Pabst continued to shrink and slowly converted to a "virtual" brewer. (Of course, Stroh later leapfrogged Pabst into oblivion).

    As for Yuengling, they also built another brewery outside of town which they've constantly been expanding. The original brewery in Pottsville is "landlocked" and can't really be enlarged.
  14. dgs

    dgs Initiate (0) Jul 18, 2005 Pennsylvania

    I guess that's been my concern/question. While Six Point may be unique in taking advantage of a labeling "loophole" to project an image, there are others also marketing an image. Again, not defending Six Point, but it may be unfair to single them out if that is your problem with them.

    While they now own their own breweries, how much Boston Lager from the Boston Beer Co. was/is brewed anywhere near Boston? Sure, it mentions OH & PA on the labels, but after Boston. I would think the majority of consumers would think the beer is brewed in MA, and BBC is more than OK with that image.

    I can understand the problem with Six Point, but I think the line can get a bit fuzzy. IOW, there may be others to consider for your list.
  15. ant880

    ant880 Savant (1,179) Nov 7, 2010 New York

    Ill back that 100%. The Sixpoint stuff I used to get on tap at local bars and bottle shops 4-5 yrs ago when I was still living in BK seems to blow away what I am tasting in their cans now. I guess that could be a product of me trying more and more different brews that are just better, but my recollection of beers like Brownstone, Sweet Action and Grandpas Nerve Tonic (not brewed anymore I dont think) is overwhelmingly positive. My feelings on most of their beer now is 'meh'
    cavedave likes this.
  16. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,133) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Sixpoint haha, it's like someone saying "sure it waddles, has webbed feet, quacks, and has a duckbill, but it is not a duck."
    ThePorterSorter likes this.
  17. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    But the fact that Boston has ALWAYS listed their other breweries' cities, whether owned or contracted IS the difference between them and what Sixpoint does. Yes, many craft brewers contract/use the alternating proprietorship model, but it's almost universally noted on the labels.

    And, yeah, the Boston facility was never meant to be a production brewery (it was often described as a "pilot plant" or "research facility", etc) and is probably now bigger than Koch every expected what with the small batch/specialty beers coming out of there but it still probably only accounts for a low single digit percentage of BBC's total barrelage. And Koch did attempt to built a new brewery in MA until Diageo made available a deal too good to pass up. But brewers are always going to list their headquarter city first on a label - St. Louis doesn't brew the majority of AB beers, nor Milwaukee most of Miller's. etc.

    Sure, all breweries have an image they try to project but a curious consumer could always look at the label of SABL and see "Rochester, NY" (or "Eden" "Utica" "Portland" "Pittsburgh"- I'm forgetting a few) and further investigate. The consumer doesn't have even that meager info re: Sixpoint.

    Instead, one would have to search TTB COLA's and see that the Sixpoint beers list a second brewery:

    Plant Registry/Basic Permit/Brewers No (Other): [​IMG]
    WILKES BARRE, PA 18705

    First they'd wonder "Mad Scientists Brewing Partners- WTF?" and they could then do a Google Map search and find The Lion brewery at that very same address.:grimacing:

    I mean, c'mon, just the fact that this is a constant reoccurring topic here on BA suggests it's wrong or at least gives "a false or misleading impression" (to use TTB's own phrasing).
    STG228 and ThePorterSorter like this.
  18. dgs

    dgs Initiate (0) Jul 18, 2005 Pennsylvania

    I agree, there is a difference. But I guess my point is that there is a lot of marketing of impression. It was clear early on to many that Six Point was brewing/canning at The Lion and not in Brooklyn, yet it keeps coming up on BA. Likewise, it also keeps coming up on BA, and in the press, that Yuengling is craft. And Rolling Rock is a PA beer. ...etc

    Buyer beware
  19. WassailWilly

    WassailWilly Initiate (0) Sep 8, 2007 New York

    Genesee Brewing NAB out of Rochester brews beers for Pyramid , Blue Point and Magic Hat to name a few ... Breweries do it too make money ... What is the issue here ? The beer tastes the same as the original.
  20. jesskidden

    jesskidden Grand Pooh-Bah (3,071) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    The "issue" for some is that, unlike the examples you gave, Sixpoint's labels do not mention the actual brewing/packaging city, so a consumer has no idea the beers aren't brewed and canned/kegged in Brooklyn, NY but rather come from The Lion's brewery in Wilkes-Barre, PA.


    It should be noted, too, that the IBU brands, Magic Hat and Pyramid, are now owned outright by NAB so it's not even "contract brewing" as such, and they still put the actual brewery city on their labels.
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