Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #13 - Rye Malt and/or Wheat Malt

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Jan 23, 2015.

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Which combo of Rye Malt and/or Wheat Malt should advance for further consideration?

Poll closed Jan 24, 2015.
  1. Rye Malt

    31.7%
  2. Wheat Malt

    48.8%
  3. Both

    19.5%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The previous poll (#12) determined that Flaked Wheat will advance to compete with/against Rye Malt and/or Wheat Malt, Unmalted Oats, and Munich and/or Vienna Malt.

    This poll (#13) will determine whether Rye Malt, Wheat Malt, or both, will advance to compete with/against Flaked Wheat, Unmalted Oats, and the winner(s) of a subsequent poll (Munich and/or Vienna Malt). (See polls #10-12 for a refresher.) If both Rye Malt and Wheat Malt win this poll, they go forward together inseparably to a future poll. This poll is before the Munich and/or Vienna poll because Rye Malt and/or Wheat Malt got more votes than Munich and/or Vienna.

    This is a straight plurality poll. Consider jumping ship to your second choice if your first choice is losing.

    I recommend you think about this in terms of not only your personal preferences, but also in the context of the ABV, Final Gravity, Yeast Strains, and the Belgian Pilsner Base Malt already selected.

    This poll will be open for 36 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt
    Flaked Wheat (potentially in, later poll)
    Rye Malt and/or Wheat Malt (potentially in, this poll and a later poll)
    Unmalted Oats (potentially in, later poll)
    Munich and/or Vienna malt (potentially in, later polls)


    Yeast: WLP565/Wyeast 3724, followed by WLP644 in primary, sometime before attenuation is complete (exact timing TBD).
     
  2. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,379) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Rye better get in this thing one way or another.
     
    OddNotion likes this.
  3. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    Wheat: light flavor, head retention. Rye: dry, spicy flavor. Okay malt experts, who can do some 'splaining on the attributes of these two grains and why this Saison would benefit from either?

    My experience: I've done Saisons with Pils only, Pils/wheat, and Pils/wheat/rye and the clear winner has been Pils only. My end results when dabbling with wheat/rye(10 - 20%) is a muted taste . . . nothing really jumps out where Pils only sparkles. The wheat did little for head retention, the rye had marginal (?) spicy notes.

    Why should the recipe have either and what should we expect them to contribute?
     
  4. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I'm voting for flaked wheat only for body and head retention, but I realize my standard operating procedure is wheat and pils. I think the next time I brew a Saison after this recipe, I'll try Pils only.
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  5. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    My voting is based on having the brett and yeast character shine on this one, therefore I want the malt character to get the F**K out of the way and be in the background.
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Chiming in here... I don't want to influence anyone's votes, but do want to make sure everyone understands what their vote means. If you select "Both," they remain tied together in the future general election, the results of which will be that they will both be in or both be out. I have a feeling folks might be thinking that they want both to advance, on the hope of getting one of the other in (but not necessarily both). If that's the case, you should be selecting the one you actually prefer now.
     
    Naugled likes this.
  7. Supergenious

    Supergenious Disciple (367) May 9, 2011 Michigan

    Really? No love for rye? We already have flaked wheat.
     
  8. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I'm thinking that the wheat/rye votes from earlier polls were for wheat more than rye, and so the vote is for wheat so future polls will go for either flaked or malted. I personally voted for wheat malt only as in previous polls I gunned for flaked wheat but not wheat malt.
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  9. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Back from the Smokies early (a combo of bad knees and bad weather).

    I voted for the Rye, I don't want to overcomplicate the recipe, but I am really liking the rye saison that I have on tap now (except for the Belle Saison yeast part). Maybe unmalted wheat or oats would be enough from a body point of view.

    Somewhat surprised that so many people want to see Malted Wheat along with flaked wheat.
     
  10. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I think this is a good question that I wish/hope someone could answer.

    Out of curiosity, what was the yeast you used for these saisons?
     
  11. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    Dupont dregs (3724) . . . and I thought there would be some wheat/rye aficionados willing to share their thoughts.
     
  12. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    This is just to consider these choices. I think most of us want wheat malt or flaked wheat, not both. I for one am against rye of any kind.
     
    LakesideBrewing and jbakajust1 like this.
  13. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,379) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Sorry I'm coming to this discussion so late. I like rye because I've tasted some esters that I have a hard time describing that I haven't encountered in the saisons I've brewed without rye, and they were tasty enough to make me want to deal with mashing a substantial portion of rye. Wheat does lead to a nice mouthfeel, but really just tastes like underbaked bread. Sorry this isn't better verbalized. What more do you want at 3am?
     
    wspscott likes this.
  14. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I voted for flaked wheat in the previous poll and rye malt in this one. The choice of flaked wheat was more for appearance than anything else. I like the boost in head retention and starchy haziness that it lends to beer. To me, those are two important visual qualities of a great Saison. The increase in body is also a plus considering the workhorse yeasties that we've selected.

    From a flavor/aroma standpoint, I actually find wheat to be an extremely subtle flavor (rye as well for that matter) and I think wheat often gets more credit than it deserves. You always hear people say "I like/don't like the wheaty flavor in that beer." Well, I think they are *generally* mistaken with what flavor/aroma they find polarizing - and that the yeast is the real culprit in that scenario. The yeast flavor far outweighs the wheat flavor in these beers in my opinion. Could just be my palate and experiences though.

    I went with rye malt because I wanted just a little more complexity out of the grain bill than straight pils and wheat. Pils is a little sweet to me on its own and in my opinion benefits from a sidekick or two. Rye is a good fit for this because of the dry, earthy, grainy and LIGHT spiciness it provides, which I think will balance out and compliment the sweet pils flavor. I emphasized light spiciness because I really don't find rye to be all that spicy. Chew on some the next time your at the LHBS, it's just a mellow flavor that is really hard to describe. The "spicy" descriptor is widely overused and accepted at this point, probably because of the association with rye bread (which tastes nothing like rye but a whole lot like caraway - which actually is VERY spicy).

    So, for better or worse, those are my thoughts on the grain selection. I actually agree with the poster above who says he wants the grain bill to stay out of the yeasts way, and I think the subtle flavors of rye and wheat can still manage to do that.
     
    #14 FeDUBBELFIST, Jan 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2015
    MrOH, wspscott and PortLargo like this.
  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Wheat Malt advances to the general election.
     
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