Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #18 - Select % of Vienna Malt

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Jan 31, 2015.

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Select Portion of Vienna Malt in Grain Bill

Poll closed Feb 2, 2015.
  1. 2%

    26.2%
  2. 4%

    2.4%
  3. 6%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 8%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 10%

    26.2%
  6. 12%

    2.4%
  7. 14%

    2.4%
  8. 16%

    7.1%
  9. 18%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. 20%

    33.3%
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The previous poll (#17) determined that the proportion of Flaked Wheat in the grist will be 17%.

    This poll (#18) will determine the percentage of Vienna Malt in the grist. If you want more than 20%, write it in.

    If you are not a believer in specifying grain bills by percentages (due to non-proportional flavor/color extraction for different grains at various mash efficiencies), the assumed mash efficiency in the final recipes will be 70%, if that helps.

    When this poll is done, I will look at the data a few different ways to determine the central tendency. It may or may not be as simple as a plurality would indicate. There may or may not be a runoff. It all depends on the data.

    I recommend you think about this in terms of not only your personal preferences, but also in the context of the ABV, Final Gravity, Yeast Strains, and the Belgian Pilsner Base Malt (proportion TBD) and Flaked Wheat (17%) already selected.

    This poll will be open for 36 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/the-averagely-perfect-american-ipa-project.59552/
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (% TBD, this poll)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (% TBD, this poll)

    Yeast: WLP565/Wyeast 3724, followed by WLP644 in primary, sometime before attenuation is complete (exact timing TBD).
     
  2. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Voted for 18% but I really want 17% for symmetry :slight_smile:
     
    SFACRKnight likes this.
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Since 0% isn't an option...2%.
     
  4. dmtaylor

    dmtaylor Aspirant (223) Dec 30, 2003 Wisconsin

    You wouldn't be able to taste it at all at 2-4%. I said 16%, seems enough to provide some character without being too much.
     
  5. Naugled

    Naugled Defender (640) Sep 25, 2007 New York

    I went 20%, just to try to get a little color in there.
     
  6. Smw356

    Smw356 Initiate (0) Jan 14, 2013 Ohio

    voted 2% since 0 wasnt an option
     
  7. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I went with 20%. However, if 2% wins, I vote to just eliminate it from the recipe altogether. Seriously, an ounce or two of Vienna won't do diddily.
     
    wspscott likes this.
  8. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    From BYO:

    Vienna malt offers a grainy, malty flavor, but is much less pronounced than that of Munich malt. It has a color rating of 3–5 °L, making it comparable to English pale malt. It works very well with the heavily-hopped beers because it adds a great degree of malt character without overshadowing the highlighted hops.

    For the twenty-percent'ers; is this what you want in your Saison? Remember, the recipe has already sacrificed 17% of the grain bill to FW.
     
    NiceFly likes this.
  9. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    What is wrong with some malt character in a saison?
     
  10. Naugled

    Naugled Defender (640) Sep 25, 2007 New York

    That's a fair plea, but that is a limited description. Vienna is used in saisons, and some claim to have as much as 40% Vienna, such as Vapeur's de Pipaix.

    My fear is that we will have another horse race and end up with another tie at 0 and 20%, and then we'll be at 10% Vienna. :astonished: But hey, that's the danger of a crowd sourced recipe by committee. However, it will push some to try things they otherwise wouldn't dare.
     
    NiceFly likes this.
  11. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

    2%, I prefer 0%. I really don't want a lot of malt flavor in this beer. I want the yeast/brett to shine, followed by hops, then, malt.
     
    PortLargo likes this.
  12. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    I agree, but the minute we adulterated the grainbill from all pils I decided to vote for maximum adulteration.
     
    MrOH likes this.
  13. epic1856

    epic1856 Initiate (0) Aug 11, 2006 California

  14. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Yeah, I mean, I don't want to make too much of this, but it does feel a little unfair if the Vienna supporters win a poll and get Vienna into the grist, only to have the anti-Vienna crowd effectively re-litigate the inclusion of Vienna by setting it at 2%. I guess the charitable way to view it is that the anti-Vienna position has grown stronger as a result of subsequent events (like the inclusion of 20% flaked wheat). But it does feel unfair. (But then again, if the pro-Vienna caucus can't muster enough votes to get a non-negligible amount of Vienna in the grist, then what ground does it have to complain...)
     
  15. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    By the way, this illustrates the path-dependency of the recipe design process. By which I mean, the order in which the polls are conducted affects the outcome. In fact, it is basically impossible to design a system that aggregates diverse preferences in a wholly satisfactory way. I think @VikeMan is doing a good job, and I know people have been very pleased with past crowd-sourced recipes, but this Vienna issue illustrates how group preferences aren't stable (in the sense of expressing themselves the same way in different contexts). So you get these weird outcomes where Vienna wins, then (maybe) loses, even though presumably it's roughly the same voters, with personal preferences that are stable.
     
  16. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Disciple (393) May 2, 2006 Utah

    When in doubt, go with 10%. :sunglasses: Vienna is a really mild malt. I don't think that 2 or 20% will make a lot of difference, but I personally would like this to be different from the one Saison I have brewed, which was 100% pils malt. Cheers, y'all!
     
    Naugled likes this.
  17. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia

    Relax people.. we aren't adding roasted barley.. it's vienna malt.. it's pretty clean, crisp and will work just fine, even at 20 percent.
     
    jbakajust1, MrOH, Naugled and 3 others like this.
  18. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    Exactly. And I'm voting for 20 because I'm curious if it will be detectable in a brett beer.
     
    MrOH and wspscott like this.
  19. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia


    Personal assumption.. No.. I think the Belgian Pilsner is a beautiful malt alone, but I think the vienna will add us a tiny bit of color, which I like, but I like pretty blonde saisons too.

    The yeast and the brett with the time, and the ability to munch on the flaked wheat will add some nice funk and fruit to this beer. I think we can welcome some nice malt to shine in, depending on how we decide to hop this.

    Personally, I'm going to double batch and sour half of it, and dry hop it. I think the vienna will be a welcomed addition!
     
  20. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    I'm considering a double batch and souring, myself. Though I'm considering adding rose hips to the soured one.
     
    FATC1TY likes this.
  21. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Initiate (0) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia



    I'm looking forward to sharing some bottles with you all here.. hope we can get enough people interested in a swap.

    I'm going to use farmhouse sour on the sour half.. saison strain, some brett, and then 2 kinds of lacto. No pedio.
     
    jbakajust1, OddNotion and JohnSnowNW like this.
  22. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Swapping is one of the reasons I bought a beergun...so you can count me in.

    My soured one may just get the ECY Bug County treatment...haven't decided.
     
  23. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Are you an economist or maybe poli sci? The whole path dependency and order of voting was very apparent with the stout last time. I think that beer would have turned out totally different if only a couple of the votes had been switched.
     
    minderbender likes this.
  24. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    I like a nice malt character in beer . . . wouldn't dream of brewing a Dubbel or Stout or Rauchbier without some Munich or Vienna, might even consider as much as 20%. But not in my Saison, this is an example of too much of a good thing not being a good thing. Every increase in specialty grains is a reduction in the Pilsner base malt. The grain bill with 17% FW and 20% V would be 6¼ lb Pils, 2 lb Vienna, & 1¾ lb FW . . . if that grain bill was posted outside this thread would it shout out Saison?

    I share your pain of adulterated-ness . . . when I saw the 1.045/1.002 I started to feel quesy. Call me naive, but I intend to really brew this creation.

    I agree . . . and for those ten percent'ers who feel so committed a vote for 2% is more likely to get you there. If past precedent is a pattern Vikeman will go with Mean 'cause he's not prone to folly . . . but if he surprises us with a multimodal verdict then who knows? :rolling_eyes:
     
    ChrisMyhre likes this.
  25. minderbender

    minderbender Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2009 New York

    Majored in econ and really liked political economics. Never thought I would apply my knowledge to saison recipe design.
     
    ChrisMyhre and wspscott like this.
  26. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    Would it help if we had polls to pick the order of the polls? What am I not getting?
    :wink:
     
  27. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Have you ever read about @OldSock's dark saisons? Here is one http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2014/02/funky-dark-saison-6-unknown.html

    I think a lot of people, myself included, then to think of DuPont when we hear the word saison, but as a "style" it covers a lot of territory as seen in "Farmhouse Ales".
     
    OldSock, ChrisMyhre and MrOH like this.
  28. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    There are some very good saisons that aren't in line with Dupont, but take a step back. How many people really want something crazy for a "perfectly average" version? I know I was hoping for something very close to a clone.
     
  29. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    There are guidelines for making Saison DuPont in the Farmhouse Ales book and elsewhere. As much as I love the beer, I don't think it is worth this complex polling just to come up with something that has already been done. For me, the value of these polls lies in the discussions and thought provoked by the unexpected turns taken by the collective, choose-your-own path approach. It's also interesting to follow Vikeman's moderations and declarations during the process.
     
  30. ChrisMyhre

    ChrisMyhre Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2013 Massachusetts

    I agree with most of what you're saying, I just think it makes sense not to stray too far from a typical example either.
     
  31. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I love DuPont, but from a group driven recipe point of view, it is kind of boring. 100% Pils and Dupont Yeast, there really is not much to discuss :slight_smile:

    I have enjoyed the DuPont yeast with non-standard ingredients, for example 100% Golden Promise and Belma hops. No one would look at that and think saison, but one taste and it screamed this is a SAISON, great summer beer. A couple years ago I did one with 80% Weyerman 6L Munich and 20% Bo Pils and Perle hops, my notes say "great combination of hops and yeast, try all Munich with a fruitier hop"

    Long story short, the Dupont yeast can do amazing things with "non-standard" malts. I'm looking forward to seeing what this beer becomes.
     
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  32. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    Just changed my vote to 20% (from 18%) to balance out the 2%ers :slight_smile:
     
  33. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    Typical example only works here if you agree that Saison DuPont is typical. It is perhaps the most widely distributed version here in the US, but if you thumb through the saisons listed in Farmhouse Ales, you'll really find a style that is not very constrained by grist composition, and it is more typical for these beers to not be 100% Pils malt:

    Euro Brewers
    Saison deEpeautre - 67% Pils, 33% unmalted spelt.
    Saison DuPont Vielle Provision - 100% Pils
    Fantome d'Erezee Printemps - Pils and Munich (no % given)
    Fantome Voisin - Pale Ale, Munich, and Caramel (no % given)
    a Vapeur Pipaix - 58% Pils, 40% Vienna, 2% Amber

    US Brewers
    Hennepin - Pils and Pale (no % given)
    McKenzie - 100% Pils
    Pizza Port SPF8 - Pils, Carawheat, Melanoidi, Special B, Carafa.

    Sample Recipes by Author
    Classic - 90% Pils 10% Wheat malt
    Spiced - Pils, Munich, Wheat Malt (no % given)
    Grisette - 75% Pils 25% Wheat Malt
    Super Saison 85% Pils, 7.5% Munich, 5% Wheat malt, + white sugar
     
    wspscott likes this.
  34. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    No worries . . . No-Folly Vikeman ( σ², x̄, λ−1 ln(2), μ) will straighten it all out. BTW, I have reviewed the Mad Fermentationist's funky-dark Saisons . . . by his own admission he is "Mad" :wink: .

    FTR; the Saison I'm currently drinking is 13% Munich and 9% Wheat . . . everyone (except Vikeman) knows grains work out better with odd numbers . . . :sunglasses:
     
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  35. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    But you never know, you could get equal votes for 12% and 14% and end up with a unimodal distribution with a mean and median of 13%.
     
    dmtaylor likes this.
  36. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Mean: 12
    Median: 10
    Mode: 20

    Going to run off between 10 and 20.
     
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