Averagely Perfect Saison - Poll #42 - Buyer Remorse Part 3

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by VikeMan, Mar 19, 2015.


What starter size(s) (if any) should be used for the WLP650?

Poll closed Mar 21, 2015.
  1. Single fresh vial, no starter

  2. 0.5 Liter single step starter

  3. 2 step starter, 0.5 Liters and 1.5 Liters

    0 vote(s)
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  1. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Poll #41 determined that the Brett strain would be changed to WLP650 and that it would now be co-pitched with the Sacch strain. In the discussion of that poll, there was enough concern about the previously determined Brett starter size (0.5 liters) that we'll revisit that decision here. Even though it's a co-pitch, the starter size (if any, TBD) is still for the Brett component.

    This is a simple plurality vote.

    For those looking ahead, after this poll will be the fermentation temperature(s) polls, then the Water polls.

    This poll will be open for 48 hours.

    (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, see these threads for the first two beers we did (and the bazillion ensuing polls and the final recipes...
    http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/averagely-perfect-american-stout-poll-1-abv.131209/ )

    Issues with methodology? Take 'em to beermail please.

    The Averagely Perfect Saison so far...

    Batch Size: 5 Gallons
    ABV: 5.7%
    OG: 1.045
    FG: 1.002
    Mash Recommendation: Single Infusion @ 150F, 60 Minutes, no Mashout
    Assumed Mash Efficiency: 70%
    90 Minute Boil
    IBUs: 24

    Grain Bill:
    Belgian Pilsner Malt (68%)
    Flaked Wheat (17%)
    Vienna malt (15%)

    WLP565/Wyeast 3724 and WLP650, co-pitched [new Brett starter size (if any) TBD, this poll]

    60 Minutes - Saaz and Hallertau, approx. 15 IBUs, Split 50/50
    10 Minutes - 0.75 ounces Saaz , 0.75 ounces Hallertau
    Flameout/Whirlpool/Hopstand - 0.75 ounces Saaz, 0.75 ounces Hallertau
  2. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    If you use the Wyeast equivalent b brux, it has a lot more cells and won't need a starter regardless of when you pitch it.

    The White Labs version is intended for a secondary fermentation without a starter, i.e. 1.016 --> 1.002.
  3. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,906) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin

    Possible write in: make 1 starter with both the saison and the brux. I'm lazy and don't want to pitch two starters plus, I only have one stir plate. Is there something wrong with this idea?

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,068) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Write in for building a starter from Orval dregs (assuming the Orval strain(s) are close enough to WLP650 for our purposes).
    #4 FeDUBBELFIST, Mar 19, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
    wspscott likes this.
  5. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    I have not used 650, but everything I've read about Brett starters is that it takes longer (7'ish days) than Sacch. Mixing the two in a starter might require a pretty serious compromise. My guess is a Brett starter would have to be made in advance of the Sacch to let those little prima donnas get their ass in gear. OTOH, this article from BYO suggests that co-pitching a single dose of Brett is advantageous. The growth phase is desirable for Brett characteristics to develop and pitching a small amount essentially starts its fermentation when the Sacch is winding down. White Labs lists 650 as a secondary strain.

    Anyone ever done any of this?
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,931) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania

    Two things I noted from the BYO article:

    “Brett-influenced Beers

    To increase the Brettanomyces-derived characteristics in a beer, you should pitch a small amount since it appears many of the characteristic compounds are produced during the growth phase.”


    “Wyeast says their bruxellensis strain produces the classic sweaty horsehair character…

    I have brewed twice with Wyeast 3789 which is a blend of Ardennes Belgian Ale yeast and Brett B yeast. I have no idea of the proportion of Belgian Ale Yeast (Sacch.) to Brett B was in this pack but I would guess it had more Saach. than Brett. What I can report is that the net result was a very funky beer from the get go; the sample I tasted at bottling was very funky.

    I would guess that by pitching a package of Dupont yeast and a package of Wyeast 5112 the Dupont yeast will develop some phenolic compounds which the later growing Brett will process to create funky flavors.

    Maybe somebody who is more well versed in the chemistry of mixed fermentations will chime in. Paging @OldSock.

  7. wspscott

    wspscott Champion (883) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I don't buy yeast to use in only one beer, so I will be making a starter no matter what. I guess this poll will determine how much I use and how much I save from the starter.

    I like the idea of just using Orval dregs.
  8. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Just remember that Wyeast and WLP have use the brux designation differently. The WLP650 is Orval's B brux, WYeast makes it sound like both their Brett strains came from mixed fermentations.
  9. Brew_Betty

    Brew_Betty Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Wisconsin

    The WL/WY brux aren't exactly the same. They do produce similar results when pitched at the same rate. The point of my previous post is some people might get the Wyeast version because their local store doesn't stock WL and there is a substantial difference in the amount of yeast supplied.
    jbakajust1 and PortLargo like this.
  10. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (729) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    Understood and agreed, just putting it out there that they aren't the same strain. I for one, don't have access to the WLP. But I also won't pay for a strain I can get from a bottle of beer for less money and drink a wonderful beer with. I would be buying a bottle of Orval and doing a small starter (100ml) to get it ready for pitching.
    Brew_Betty likes this.
  11. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    Just buy two bottles :wink:
  12. PortLargo

    PortLargo Devotee (484) Oct 19, 2012 Florida

    Maybe we are going about this all wrong by fiddling with starter sizes. According to Yeast, the preferred pitching rate for Brett is 200,000 cells/ml (they don't differentiate between primary/secondary or OG). For a five gallon batch this comes to 4 billion cells. I asked White Labs how many cells in their secondary Brett vials and they wouldn't say, from another thread Oldsock advised about 3B cells per vial. These figures are in line.

    If it really takes 7 days for a dose of Brett to get up to speed, then co-pitching is essentially asking the Brett to step in after the Dupont is largely finished. The joker here is ferm temp: WL recommends 85+ for 650 which is certainly in range of 3724 but we won't know the recipe's temp until the next poll. If the group votes to ferm at a lower temp the Brett will probably not kick in until after the primary is finished (speculation here). I'm not sure that is a bad thing, would mimic bottling conditioning. If a starter is voted on (currently loosing) then the pitch-rate will exceed recommended levels and ester profile will be completely different (speculation again).

    Finally, Brett is an oxygen hog . . . prefers up to four times as much as Sacch for high growth levels. Not suggesting an oxygen poll, but how the wort is aerated may have a big influence on the final product. How these variables (starter/no-starter/oxygen-level) are tweaked may give results that aren't averagely at all.
    pweis909 likes this.
  13. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Single fresh vial, no starter. So let it be written.
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