Beer Styles Have Finally Been Updated!

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. bbtkd

    bbtkd Poo-Bah (2,480) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    Society Trader

    Exactly. If a brewer had an 8.5% ABV Pumpkin Porter with chilis and raspberries (!), they would have a choice of about six different styles. To me it is clearly a porter. Why does it need to be anything else due to ABV or add-junks. It's a waste of time to talk about eliminating styles when most others are hell-bent on working towards every beer being it's own unique style. Why not just let the brewers make up whatever style name they want?
     
  2. Squire

    Squire Poo-Bah (2,225) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
    Society Trader

    Sometimes I think that's exactly what they're doing.
     
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  3. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Poo-Bah (6,956) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    Society

    aw man...

    There's no top beer by style anymore I assume right?

    Oh well, that was always interesting to look at once in awhile.. or did I miss it somewhere?
     
  4. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (6,536) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    Click on your style of choice, then click on top rated.

    Or go to Top Rated Beers, and click on drop down Top Rated Beers (by Style)

    Ugh...which led me to click on Belgian Saison, which was utterly dominated by American Saisons. When will it end?!?!
     
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  5. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Poo-Bah (2,429) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    Society

    Apparently one new style category that should be added is "American Saison" to segregate the impostors from the true ones.
     
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  6. Smakawhat

    Smakawhat Poo-Bah (6,956) Mar 18, 2008 Maryland
    Society

    DOH!... ok got it! I guess the red coloring threw me.

    Ah style and drinking categories.. the debate and shuffling continues! :slight_smile:
     
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  7. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (8,175) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    Well remember until the tweaking of the naming of the styles, it used to be called Saison/Farmhouse Ale not Belgian Saison and I believe the "Belgian" in Belgian Saison is a reference to the origin of the style.
     
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  8. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,833) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Society Trader

    That's all well and good if you believe that saisons or farmhouse ales were reigned in by the imaginary line that is a country's border. I believe that farmhouse ales were brewed all over Europe, but for what we're talking about specifically in northern France and Southern Belgium. There may be an actual border between the two countries but I doubt that the farmers there didn't share yeasts, or had different styles on one side or the other. And most certainly they both brewed beers for their seasonal farm hands, which would have been saisons.
     
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  9. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (8,175) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    I do not disagree with you, I preferred the previous naming of the style as Saison/Farmhouse Ale - my point was being made to the person complaining that the style "Belgian Saison" was being dominated by American Saisons in that all that changed about the style was a naming change to indicate the area of origin, not a change in what beers would fit into the style.

    I think that many of the areas of origin prefix on the styles came from areas that historically had somewhat fluid borders (not necessarily the arbitrary line that is in place today). That is likely why the style Czech Pilsner changed names to Bohemian Pilsner.
     
  10. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    I've been looking into Kvass a little recently and bought a few bottles from a Russian supermarket. It really shouldn't be listed as a style here because it's definitely not a beer, it's a fermented malt soda.
     
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  11. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (6,536) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
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    The one I had by Jester King was certainly beer.
     
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  12. DISKORD

    DISKORD Aspirant (294) Feb 28, 2017 North Carolina

    Then it's not Kvass. Because Kvass is not beer.
     
  13. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (6,536) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    How a bout Shandy? I'd argue for a separate style just for that, but by the historical 'definition' and service of the beverage, as well as some of the older examples still around, it'd also likely not really be considered "beer." But America has pretty much made it a widely available and popular seasonal, packaged beer style.
     
  14. DISKORD

    DISKORD Aspirant (294) Feb 28, 2017 North Carolina

    Isn't Shandy: hefeweizen + lemonade (50/50)? If so, it contains beer. Calling Kvass a beer is like calling Kombucha, Apple Cider and other fermented drinks beer. And the decsription is wrong. Kvass is never made from grains. The real deal homemade stuff is made from stale (hard and old) dark rye bread, sugar, yeast and some raisins (optional). All the stuff in plastic bottles and aluminum cans is mass produced, made from extracts with caramel color added. This one has a pretty good description. https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/16991/42484/
     
    #214 DISKORD, Sep 19, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  15. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Those craft interpretations have little to do with authentic Kvass though. It's definitely regarded as a soft drink in Russia and the Baltic states. We have quite a few authentic Russian/Polish supermarkets where I live and every one of those has Kvass in the soda section with no alcohol content listed on the bottles because it's usually under 1% ABV. Every employee I've talked to has told me it's not beer.

    I mean, it's not even made from malted grains and hops, but traditionally with rye bread and sugar, while the more modern, industrial Kvass uses malt extracts or flour instead. If we consider Kvass a style of beer then we might as well add German Brottrunk and Kombucha as well.
     
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  16. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (6,536) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    As I stated, in the past, Shandy may have been served and (technically) blended differently, and as such not really a style unto itself (just as Black & Tan never deserved to be a style), but brewers are making their own shandies now, whether it's an American wheat base or something lighter, it's become a beer.

    By extension, a lot of the Kvass out there in America has derived from the tradition you mention, but evolved into beer. I'm not making an argument Kvass should stick around as a style but it's been on this site a long time. If not many breweries are going to make it though, then yeah it's about as relevant as Brut IPA.

    Let us not forget both mead and beer did not originate with a very high alcohol content at all.
     
  17. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Savant (996) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Wow, that's a pretty low ABV.

    So what you're saying is if I drink 10 of them I won't become a huge Kvasshole?
     
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  18. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Well, since they usually come in 68oz bottles, drinking 10 of them would definitely make you a Kvass-hole :stuck_out_tongue:.
     
  19. MNAle

    MNAle Meyvn (1,472) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    re: Kvass, is it a beer? ... RB says this:

    Traditional Ale
    A catch-all category used to classify ancient or resurrected styles of antiquity that are appearing more in brewing today. Heather ale, spruce beer, sorghum beer, gruit, and beers like Adam, Russian Kvass and Midas Touch are all included in this category. These ales will vary tremendously in character from one another. Many are unhopped, strength can vary, but all are a glimpse into brewing's past.

    So, they are classifying Kvass as a "Traditional Ale."
     
  20. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (6,536) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Society Trader

    Midas Touch? lol...couldn't they have left that out or mentioned Ancient Ales? Seems odd to call out a specific brewery's beer...
     
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  21. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (8,175) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    There are basically two kinds of kvass available:
    1. Those produced by soft drink type manufacturers which are more of a fermented malt soda from extract
    2. Those that are produced by breweries that are made by fermenting cereal grains (or bread) with baker's yeast and sugars.
     
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  22. jakecattleco

    jakecattleco Poo-Bah (2,006) Sep 3, 2008 California
    Society Trader

    Who is submitting some of these style change requests? I just saw Boneyard Notorious listed as a NEIPA...WTF :confused:
     
  23. MNAle

    MNAle Meyvn (1,472) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    Yeah... I thought that was odd. They called out Hair of the Dog Adam, too.
     
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  24. MNAle

    MNAle Meyvn (1,472) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    IDK anything about that beer, but the BA style assignments have always been member-driven, and as passionate as some are about NEIPAs, I can see this turning into a real shit show...
     
  25. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Meanwhile, both wikipedia and russiapedia are classifying it as a "non-alcoholic beverage":

    Kvass is classified as a non-alcoholic drink by Russian and Polish standards, as the alcohol content from fermentation is typically low (0.5–1.0%).

    While the production process is similar to beer making, kvas has very low alcohol content (0.05 - 1.44%) and it is considered a non-alcoholic drink.



    I'm not sure if there really is such a clean-cut distinction here. I stood in front of shelf with at least 10 different Kvass from various breweries and soft drink manufacturers today and they all contained sugar, yeast and lactic acid, the only difference being if malt extract or rye malt/flour was used.

    The one I'm drinking right now is by a brewery, brewed with rye malt and flour and still has no alcohol content listed and tastes like a cross between a German Malzbier and Coca Cola.
     
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  26. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,787) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
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    Well if wikipedia says its so ... :stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  27. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    And Ratebeer is the all-knowing oracle of the internet? Honestly, I'm more inclined to go with a more neutral source concerning this, but the truth is that if you do some online research you will come up with just as many sources that claim it's beer as those that claim it's not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

    From my personal exposure to the drink, and talking to actual Russians, I'm definitely sceptical that this beverage is a beer.
     
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  28. MNAle

    MNAle Meyvn (1,472) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    RB and BA will be looking a Kvass from the beer perspective; wiki is crowd sourced and edited and will look at it from a broader perspective. That doesn't make either wrong in this instance (although there have been some real whoppers on wiki in the past...)
     
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  29. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,787) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    I actually agree with you that I don't understand why kvass is listed as a beer style here ... when I was ticking all the styles I went to a Polish grocer and bought a few of their kvasses - needless to say they thought I was 1) nuts for buying 4 kinds of kvass and 2) really nuts for saying that it was a beer. That being said, citing wikipedia as a source for anything makes me laugh.
     
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  30. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Yup, that definitely lines up with my experience at the Russian/Polish grocer, even though I only bought three kinds.
     
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  31. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,578) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew

    Thanks to everyone for your feedback. @Keene and I will be reviewing everything soon, followed by making some adjustments and adding even more styles. :open_mouth:

    Updates to follow...
     
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  32. MNAle

    MNAle Meyvn (1,472) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    :astonished:, indeed! :wink:
     
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  33. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Poo-Bah (6,066) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Society

    But if its a heavily fruited kettle sour, does it belong in Fruit Beer instead? The Gose style description doesn't mention fruit adjuncts at all.
     
  34. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (8,175) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    They just don't fit nicely, hence my much earlier suggestion that Fruited Sour and/or Kettle Sour beg to be their own styles. I would probably stick with the base beer style rather than the fruit beer style (like I would for a Chocolate Raspberry stout).
     
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  35. jmdrpi

    jmdrpi Poo-Bah (6,066) Dec 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Society

    But can't you say that for any fruit beer?

    Prior to the whole fruited kettle sour and fruited IPA craze, most of the popular fruit beers were based on Wheat beers, Blonde Ales, or Pale Lagers. Those were still a "base style".

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/styles/9/
    "Fruit beer is made with fruit, or fruit extracts that are added during any portion of the brewing process, providing obvious yet harmonious fruit qualities."

    That would imply really any beer with fruit added, or at least as a prominent flavor.
     
  36. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (8,175) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    Yet Belgian Fruit Lambic is a distinct style and I think of these fruited sours in the same vein as there is generally a fair amount of sourness present as well (not advocating that they should be classified as Belgian Fruit Lambic but rather that American Fruited Sour deserves it's own style).
     
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  37. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Wait, was Radler never a style on here or did that get removed recently? Just trying to figure out if I'm going crazy... :crazy_face:
     
  38. dbrauneis

    dbrauneis Poo-Bah (8,175) Dec 8, 2007 North Carolina
    Moderator Society Trader

    Never a style on here.
     
  39. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (1,547) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    Crazy it is then, I could have sworn I saw that in the list :flushed::sweat_smile::crazy_face:. This is also something that's a little difficult to handle though. While I agree that Radler shouldn't be a style on here, it's also very weird, to say the least, to have Radlers in the database as "Fruit And Field Beers". Honestly, they probably shouldn't be in the database at all, as they are not technically a beer, but a beer-mixer.

    Another thing which I only noticed very recently is that "Kristalweizen" should be changed to "Kristallweizen", as that is the correct spelling of "Kristall" in German.
     
  40. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,787) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Good catch - hope they tweak that.

    I know it been mentioned several times here, but please change British barleywine back to English barleywine. I don't know of anyone else who calls the style British as opposed to English.