Site Beer Trader Feedback: Sneak Peek (Part 1)

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, May 16, 2013.

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  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Beer Trading has been a part of BeerAdvocate since our first forums back in the late 90s. Though it's evolved and become extremely popular, here at BA it's always lacked a critical feature to help traders better qualify other traders and reward those who truly embrace the camaraderie and culture of beer trading: a feedback system.

    We've also promised a feedback system in the past, but never delivered. Combine this with the Bros' notorious iron fists of moderation and ... well let's just say we've felt your frustration.

    Today we begin to own up to our promise, and make some changes in how we communicate what's going on here at BA.

    For the last couple of weeks Jason, Mike and I have bounced concepts around and a few days ago I began development. Much progress has been made and I'm excited to release some screen shots of the work in progress; subject to change; see the thumbnails at the bottom of the post for large views.

    Feedback View
    The default view you'll see when looking at another member's beer trading history. It's simple and clean, with beer trader stats and a new beer trade form in the sidebar.
    Traders will receive a rating (and text-based feedback) for each trade, which we'll track along with number of trades and points; see below. These stats can be extended and used throughout the site in endless ways.

    Queue View
    In this view you'll be able to see trades you initiated as well as those initiated by others. Based on the status of a trade, the queue will prompt you to take action; accept, deny or leave feedback.
    How It Works
    We wanted to keep the system simple, but useful.
    • While this can certainly be used to capture feedback for past trades, we'll be encouraging all members to not ship a trade until both parties have accepted the trade via the new beer trader feedback system.
    • Once both parties accept, each will be able to leave the other trade partner feedback.
    • Once both parties leave feedback the trade will be deemed complete, feedback will be published and points awarded. (How this works may change as one trading partner might not leave feedback.)
    • If a trade request is denied, the trade is cancelled; we'll track these too, just in case there's a pattern of abuse.
    • The feedback system will be trusted based. Abuse won't be tolerated, but honest and constructive feedback will be encouraged.
    Beer Trade Points
    Each successful trade may yield points. We're not sure if these will apply to Beer Karma yet, but we're exploring ways to use points. In development we're using:
    • Positive = 2
    • Neutral = 1
    • Negative = 0
    When Will This Launch?
    We're pretty busy with American Craft Beer Fest and the next issue of BeerAdvocate magazine on the way, but we're committed to release something soon. We'll keep everyone posted.

    Also Under Development
    We're also exploring these other beer trading related items. Some will launch prior to the site redesign, while others will occur during or after it.
    • Main Beer Trading page; lists, links to help pages and forums, etc.
    • Top & Bad Trader lists.
    • Toggles for Wants/Gots that will allow members to decide which beers are up for trade, which are not and which ones rest in their beer cellars; with notes.
    • Top Wants & Gots; based on the beers members tag as tradable.
    ... and a few more things we'll hold onto for now.

    Recent & Upcoming Beer Trading Updates
    I also snuck these in ...
    • Beer Trading is no longer a sub-forum group.
    • ISO:FT (Breweriana) has been created.
    • Members only need to wait 30 days before gaining posting privileges.
    • We're actively seeking mods.
    • Once we get mods in place:
      • We'll return ISO:FT (Beer Only) to its original order thread by last replied to.
      • Include Beer Trading topics in What's New? again.
      • Allow Beer Trading posts to count towards totals.
      • Turn on Likes.
      • Put some trust into all of you beer traders out there, the new mods, the new feedback system and all of the other updates.
    That's it for now. Much more to follow ...

    In the meantime, we look forward to your feedback.


    beer-trader-feedback-beta-screen-1.png beer-trader-feedback-beta-screen-2.png
  2. TwelveOunces

    TwelveOunces Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2011 Kentucky

    GrumpyOldTroll likes this.
  3. Mersh

    Mersh Zealot (531) Mar 10, 2013 Connecticut
    Beer Trader

    Totally needed and cannot wait to see this in action. Good luck guys.
    VonZipper likes this.
  4. oldp0rt

    oldp0rt Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2011 Quebec (Canada)

    Very nice.

    I'm glad this is finally under way.
  5. TheBishopco

    TheBishopco Devotee (451) Feb 4, 2011 Tennessee
    Beer Trader

    I don't trade very often, but I really appreciate this new update. Great work guys! I do have a question though. Why would negative feedback not result in a loss of a point?
  6. jrnyc

    jrnyc Champion (884) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Beer Trader

    Awesome, thanks! Renews my faith in BA :slight_smile:!
  7. marine1975

    marine1975 Disciple (373) Apr 27, 2009 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

  8. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    We thought about this too, but awarding zero points, increasing the number of negative trades and trade feedback/history should be enough. We'll see how it works and update as needed.
  9. brewtechnik

    brewtechnik Aspirant (221) Aug 31, 2011 New Hampshire
    Beer Trader

    Awesome! We're very excited to start using this...
    Great Job to the whole BA team!
  10. Pahn

    Pahn Meyvn (1,449) Dec 2, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    nice. for various reasons i'm on (for real) hiatus, but it will be nice to give a little bump to the people who have been really generous to me in the past (ie pretty much everyone i've traded with).
  11. nanobrew

    nanobrew Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2008 California

    looks very nice. One thing I am curious about (not that I think much can be done about it) is will Positive be the normal, and Neutral never be used or viewed as an insult? I hope this isn't the case and majority of trades are marked as Neutral and only those going way above and beyond getting Positive.
    Beerontwowheels likes this.
  12. jRocco2021

    jRocco2021 Disciple (351) Mar 13, 2010 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

  13. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Good question. We're currently using positive, neutral and negative in development, but did consider:
    • Awesome (above expectations) = 2 points
    • Good (the norm, as expected) = 1 point
    • Bad (below expectations) = 0 points
    How's that?

    (Original post has been updated to reflect this.)
    Clonies720, jgluck, atone315 and 11 others like this.
  14. oldp0rt

    oldp0rt Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2011 Quebec (Canada)

    This version seems to be fair.
  15. nanobrew

    nanobrew Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2008 California

    2 points - Awesome
    MarkIntihar and Todd like this.
  16. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I have no problem with the separation of awesome and good, but as nanobrew pointed out, it's hard to predict how the crowd will actually use the two.

    I think realistically what is going to happen is "total points" are going to matter less than the ratio of awesome/good to bad. Much like Ebay, you want to see somebody at 99% good/awesome, and then you're going to want to read about that one "bad" in depth, if it exists.

    Great stuff, can't wait for this feature...
    Hermthegerm likes this.
  17. JayORear

    JayORear Zealot (596) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Any way to track/quantify the amount of time it takes for a trade to complete? Not sure if it would directly affect the rating, but I'd love a graphical representation (timeline?) of how long it takes for both sides to get their trades delivered, compared to other trades. Maybe points are awarded for timely completion?
    bozodogbreath likes this.
  18. riemster

    riemster Devotee (458) Mar 17, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    That's much better wording than positive, neutral, negative! What about Stellar (2), Pass (1), and Fail (0)?

    What about using a 0 - 4 scale? In other words, adding a worst case scenario (0) and a best case scenario (4). Just an idea.
    • Out of this World (Above and beyond expectations) = 4 (A)
    • Awesome (Above expectations) = 3 (B)
    • Good (The norm or as expected) = 2 (C)
    • Bad (Below expectations) = 1 (D)
    • Awful (Nightmare, worst trade ever) = 0 (F)
  19. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Currently we're tracking 3 dates: the date the trade was initiated, and the date feedback was given for each trader; what we'll consider a completed trade for now.

    We'd have to adjust things if we wanted to add delivery dates, at which point ... hell, we might as well add received dates and a field for tracking numbers. Of course we'd have to think about all of this a bit more and include it in a future update.
  20. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    We're really trying to keep this as simple as possible, which will encourage use.

    We're also thinking that the 0, 1 and 2 points would be cumulative (not unlike Beer Karma) vs. averaged across all feedback to create a score.
    GetMeAnIPA likes this.
  21. SteelersX

    SteelersX Disciple (370) Jan 30, 2011 New York
    Beer Trader

    What is to stop retaliation? Just playing devils (beer) advocate.
    I rate someone as bad next thing you know I get a bad rating.

    Many times honest feedback is viewed as abuse and the other way around.
    Callmecoon likes this.
  22. fiver29

    fiver29 Devotee (422) Sep 18, 2007 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I think the layout is great! I think the idea is great! Glad to see this coming.

    Looks like the only sticking point is going to be how to assign feedback. Looks like there are going to be views on this all over the place. And here's mine.

    I think feedback should be simple. When it gets too complicated and you have to spend more time explaining how it works it needs to change.

    So, I think there should be no more than 2 or 3 areas to rate the trade. Personally, I'd like to just see:

    Not Completed

    When I make a trade I either do it or I don't. Simple enough and lets others know if I complete my trades or not.

    Adding a third dimension to me would look like this:

    Completed with complications
    Not Completed

    Again, pretty self explanatory.

    Only issue I would have with Awesome and Good is the subjective nature of it. I send what I think is an awesome box to someone and they give me a Good rating. I don't think trading should be defined that way.

    You either complete the agreed trade or you don't. I'd put a rating system in place that way.
    jgluck, mrcraft and alysmith4 like this.
  23. JayORear

    JayORear Zealot (596) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    I'm thinking of ways that might assist this situation: my trading partner wants something I have; on their side they're going to "pick up next time they're at the brewery/bottle shop." Which is totally fine, unless that time stretches out into weeks, then maybe months. So, maybe what could happen is if a trade is agreed upon, and one side is taking a long time to ship, they get an automatically generated reminder note based on the non-complete status of the trade? Just spitballing here . . .
  24. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Feedback wouldn't be published/counted until both parties submit; at that point the trade has been completed. So if you leave someone bad feedback, they won't know until they leave feedback for you.
  25. SteelersX

    SteelersX Disciple (370) Jan 30, 2011 New York
    Beer Trader

    Makes sense.
  26. JayORear

    JayORear Zealot (596) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Per my other posts, it's not just completing or not, but how timely. If I see someone regularly takes more than a month to complete a trade, it's going to help me set expectations.
  27. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Which reminds me, we'll need a mechanism to determine when a trade should be deemed "incomplete."

    It could be as easy as setting an acceptable timeframe to complete the trade. If the trader misses the window, we'd tag the incomplete trade and insert an automated feedback message accordingly.

    Open to suggestions.
  28. williamjbauer

    williamjbauer Champion (889) Jan 17, 2012 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    It would be very nice to have an average time to complete trade or just a stamp in the trading history to check for trends that might be concerning.
  29. fiver29

    fiver29 Devotee (422) Sep 18, 2007 Ohio
    Beer Trader


    All work as long as they are clearly defined. Problems will come up when I send 2 different traders the same box (let's say 2 agreed upon beers and 2 extras off their want list or release only beer extras). One rates me awesome. The other rates me good. Both trades were completed in a reasonable amount of time.

    Why was one awesome and the other good? What one person feels was above and beyond someone else felt it was just good. How are these going to be defined (ie. awesome trade means you got want list extras and good means you got average extras). Or awesome means you just gave extras and good means you didn't give extras but sent the agreed upon beers.

    I could keep giving more scenarios. Leaving up to each trader without clearly defined expectations of what is awesome and what is average may create issues.
    Eriktheipaman likes this.
  30. kdmcguire10

    kdmcguire10 Initiate (0) Jul 15, 2011 Michigan

    Much needed. I say stick with as simple as possible to start and adjust as needed.

    Nice work
  31. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Addressing the subjective nature of the wording is definitely something we'll consider.
    alysmith4 and fiver29 like this.
  32. forgetfu

    forgetfu Initiate (172) Jul 27, 2007 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    Any possibility that the view order can be an individually controlled option? Sometimes it's nice to see what new trades are being posted, rather than the trades that are being talked about the most. (I know moderation will help will help keep the discussions positive, but changing the sort order would still be nice).
  33. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Poo-Bah (4,678) Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    I really think it should just be positive or negative.

    Either give somebody props or explain the negatives.

    Personally, think people are going to be rightfully pissed off when they are given a neutral for a mediocre packing job (but the bottles still made it) or somebody didn't include extras (even though they were not discussed and shouldn't be expected)

    I believe adding the neutral is going to cause problems the the bros and coming mods will have to police... So why even other giving people the option.

    "levels" of positive seems too subjective too.

    My vote... + or -
    Clonies720, jgluck, mrcraft and 7 others like this.
  34. fiver29

    fiver29 Devotee (422) Sep 18, 2007 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I think this is awesome!!
  35. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    It's currently not supported. It's either all or nothing.
    forgetfu likes this.
  36. Kmccabe33

    Kmccabe33 Aspirant (213) Nov 4, 2011 Georgia
    Beer Trader

    I like the idea of having feedback, but I agree it should be more clear cut, either positive or negative. And also, how does it make sense for it to be cumulative and not an average? Someone could have 100 amazing trades after having 50 horrible trades, and a feedback of 100 would still look good on the surface? Whereas having a 1.33 Average brings more questions from a potential trader.
    jgluck and BobZ like this.
  37. MrNickVT

    MrNickVT Initiate (122) May 16, 2013 Vermont
    Beer Trader

    Sounds like a step in the right direction to me.
  38. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    The more I think about it, review the feedback and keep our need for simplicity in mind, we should really remove any wiggle room for subjectivity when casting feedback.

    As some have already mentioned, you're either going to have a positive or negative experience, or in some unfortunate cases no experience. So here's another way we can do this:
    • Positive: Completed; as expected = +1 point
    • Negative: Completed; not as expected = -1 points
    • Incomplete: Trader failed to deliver within timeframe; system assigned = -1 point
  39. oldp0rt

    oldp0rt Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2011 Quebec (Canada)

    How about
    • Positive: Completed; as expected = +1 point
    • Negative: Completed; not as expected = 0 point
    • Incomplete: Trader failed to deliver = -1 point
    fiver29 and Beerontwowheels like this.
  40. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,493) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Hmm ... but this doesn't "punish" the trader for a negative experience. 0 points would be more like a neutral, which we're trying to steer away from.
    ThePorterSorter and dvelcich like this.
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