Site Beer Trader Feedback: Sneak Peek (Part 1)

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, May 16, 2013.

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  1. ThatCracker

    ThatCracker Aspirant (295) Nov 20, 2012 Virginia
    Beer Trader

    Would the "not as expected" only be used if the agreed upon trade is not done? Or would someone who sends extras but does not get any extras in return deem it "not as expected"? I think clear and concise feedback by both participants as well as the ability for a person receiving a negative feedback to issue a rebuttal would help clear up the confusion. Would mods be called upon to settle differences in these cases?
    alex_hart and alysmith4 like this.
  2. fiver29

    fiver29 Devotee (423) Sep 18, 2007 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    True. You could set the numbers at any level.

    Positive +1
    Negative -1
    Incomplete -2

    Or any other combo that makes it work.
  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,507) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    We'd need to address a rebuttal system and when mods would get involved once we get a feel for how things work.
  4. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,507) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Ouch, but it would definitely send a message.
  5. oldp0rt

    oldp0rt Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2011 Quebec (Canada)

    Good point.

    We're still just brainstorming :grinning:

    Maybe then keep it even more simple with a good trade or bad trade with a little note from the BA explaining the decision. This way it would just tally up good trades versus bad ones.

    Do we really need trade points?
  6. aasher

    aasher Poo-Bah (2,539) Jan 27, 2010 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    I think you're missing +2, insane trader.
  7. fiver29

    fiver29 Devotee (423) Sep 18, 2007 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Agreed. It would clearly separate the good from the bad.
  8. charlesjwinkler

    charlesjwinkler Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2013 Illinois

    I was hesitant at first about trading, but now with this new feedback system I'm pretty excited to get started.
    spookyspeeg likes this.
  9. JayORear

    JayORear Defender (601) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Another way to reduce subjectivity would be to move away from simple value assignments and measure actual behaviors more directly. You'd have to take a step back and ask "what makes a good or bad trade experience?" Then construct questions/measurements around those things. Not to beat a dead horse, but timing would be one factor. Another one off the top of my head: "Did they send extras even when you agreed not to?" This actually hasn't happened to me yet, and it seems to be a point of pride when someone breaks this agreement, but I think it says something about what trading with someone's going to be like. For me, there's good reasons why I might not want to do extras: budget, having too much beer on hand already, etc. If someone sent me extras in spite of agreeing not to, I'd feel bad and beer would probably get wasted. Anyway, that's just one example.

    For me, an ideal feedback profile would tell me something about how long it took the trade to complete, whether the person stayed in good communication throughout the process (confirmed shipping dates, tracking numbers, etc.), and something objective about extras--"sent awesome extras" doesn't really help me.

    This approach is hard to translate into points, and/or a reward/punishment system, though.
    jRocco2021 likes this.
  10. brother_kenneth

    brother_kenneth Zealot (559) Oct 22, 2012 Virginia
    Beer Trader

    This is going to be an excellent upgrade!
  11. JayORear

    JayORear Defender (601) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Another objective question: "Would you trade with this person again?"
  12. chefkevlar

    chefkevlar Disciple (335) Apr 17, 2010 South Carolina
    Beer Trader

    How about:
    Completed, timely and smooth +2
    Completed, but with complications +1 (this could represent an unexplained shipping delay, broken bottles due to poor packing etc, basically anything that caused one side grief but that was eventually resolved to both side's satisfaction)
    Not Completed -1 (one side never shipped, or ignored communication to the point where the other called it off)

    I also feel like there should also be an option where both parties can agree to amicably cancel a trade in case of unforeseen circumstances that would result in no point gain or loss.
    jgluck and Kuemmelbrau like this.
  13. elNopalero

    elNopalero Poo-Bah (2,606) Oct 14, 2009 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I just might start trading (in person) now... I've really enjoyed all the new things in the site redesign lately. Bravo!
  14. jRocco2021

    jRocco2021 Disciple (351) Mar 13, 2010 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    In regards to the time frame there can be extenuating circumstances. As it stands I have a few trades I've needed to shuffle time frames around on due to sub zero temperatures money issues etc everyone so far is cool because we keep in touch but if theres essentially a timer that affects your trader rating that I have to baby sit there could be mistakes. What if you just had a way to report on whether or not the trade was timely. So you could just have whatever system you set up but at the bottom have a check box for timely and untimely or something like that with a text box to explain the untimley's so you could see they're a good trader but have frequent delays or are very timley.
  15. Michigan

    Michigan Initiate (0) Oct 24, 2012 Michigan

    I think the scores need to be locked in and both need to submit by a certain time to avoid possible retaliation scoring. Let's say I sent 5 extras to a guy and he sends none and I had to chase the guy down to get him to send the box. I, therefore, give a neutral score; the trade was completed, but it wasn't anything worth posting about. If this neutral score is broadcast before he publishes his score for me, he may score me lower as a way to "get back at me" for my neutral score.

    Just a thought.

    I think running it IDENTICALLY to the eBay system is the best way to go. I want to see percentages, not just total points. I also think having a 'Top 25' traders list would be really fun!
  16. flexabull

    flexabull Poo-Bah (2,289) Mar 9, 2006 California
    Beer Trader

    Could people use this system to catalog past trades? (sorry if this was asked/answered, I skimmed some of the posts)
  17. Treebs

    Treebs Initiate (0) Apr 18, 2011 Illinois

    Sometimes bottles break because entire fork lift smashes a box. If I trader goes above and beyond to replace the bottle I don't think he/she should be penalized for this by a reduction of a point. Sometimes there are matters out of the traders hands and it would be unfair to penalize them a point for this.
  18. tommyz

    tommyz Devotee (420) May 28, 2007 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    Im LOVING the way this is going and think this can be an amazing feature..One thing I really hope is Oldport is involved (as long as he wants to be). His contributions with the bad trader list has really helped..

    Another thing Id like to see is this...I see the point system and do agree with it except 1 thing...A bad trader needs to be pounded with point loss..I dont believe -1 or -2 is enough...People need to be warned about bad traders and bad traders need to be "pounded" with point loss...IMO, it should be a -5 or a -10... Bad traders need to be sent a message that it is not acceptable..losing a measly point or 2 does not send a message imo..

    To be quite honest, along with the point loss I believe the poster should be banned from the site for a certain time frame left up to the mods..Weather its a couple weeks or a month..I know its possible, as we do this on a site I mod..

    Just wanted to put this out there..Thanks Bros!
  19. EgadBananas

    EgadBananas Initiate (0) Mar 18, 2009 Louisiana

    I definitely agree to -2 points for bad feedback, +1 for positive and 0 for completed with issues. Making it harder to rack up points, while making it easier to lose points would really drive home the desire to be deemed a great trader.

    Also, what is going to be the character limit on feedback responses? Is it going to be a twitter-esque 140 characters?
  20. chefkevlar

    chefkevlar Disciple (335) Apr 17, 2010 South Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I should have been clearer, but I was thinking the 1 pt reduction only for cases where there has been negligence on the part of one trader. Say in your example a forklift smashed the box or something. Did the sender offer to send replacements immediately? That could still be 2 points, but if it took some hassling (repeated emails, calls etc) to get done it might only get 1. Even if the package was just poorly packed and something was damaged they could still earn 2 under the same criteria of "was it resolved quickly? It's all arbitrary, but I'm also now thinking that there should be a minimum word count when grading someone below 2 to explain what happened.
  21. pcsnyder

    pcsnyder Initiate (0) May 2, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Looking forward to these updates! I have yet to get into trading, but I'll have more confidence in it once I can see how others' experiences have been with certain traders.

    My two cents: It should be easier to lose points than to earn them. To me, the points are like how trustworthy a person is. Once you lose trust, it takes a while to earn it back. Like one good trade gives you +1, but an incomplete trade costs you maybe -3.

    I honestly like both ideas (point system and averaged ratings) for how to rate traders. I'd be happy with either system.
  22. Jfriz25

    Jfriz25 Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2012 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    Think this was answered already but the scores wouldn't be published until both sides post. My question about that would be why would someone submit feedback knowing they took 2 months to ship, were hard to track down, ect. Wouldn't that be a way to avoid bad feedback?
    richardflyr likes this.
  23. T-RO

    T-RO Aspirant (213) Nov 9, 2012 New Hampshire
    Beer Trader

    I've done 3 trades but they were all initiated from a different forum e.g. regional, would I be able to "backfit" these into the trader forum to get some history built?
    kemoarps, Paccamacca and alysmith4 like this.
  24. Jfriz25

    Jfriz25 Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2012 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    Would BIFs be included in this? Maybe the rating is done by the person running the BIF? Also giving a box away in a LIF should give you a + or two once the recipient confirms delivery.
    Kuemmelbrau likes this.
  25. tehzachatak

    tehzachatak Initiate (0) Sep 19, 2010 Massachusetts

    Just one comment (don't know if people disagree): you mentioned once mods were installed in Beer Trading, that thread default display order would revert to how it is everywhere else (last post). I, for one, really like the default view being most recent POST - makes it feel much more like a marketplace (which it is), rather than an open forum (which I suppose it sort of is - but I don't know if having it treated that way is a good thing).

    Just my two cents - I don't think this needs to be reverted. Perhaps others disagree!
  26. Auror

    Auror Defender (635) Jan 1, 2010 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    The problem with a cumulative total as opposed to a ratio is that it only takes a certain number of trades before you can just screw someone. For example: I do 20 trades, get 20 points. Then after that, I can screw someone every 3 trades or so and my score will either maintain or get better. Now, it would behoove people to check the actual feedback and not just the score, but still.
  27. tommyz

    tommyz Devotee (420) May 28, 2007 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    exactly..which is why I think hammering them with a major point deduction should be on the table
  28. DogfishJoe

    DogfishJoe Initiate (189) Feb 14, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I agree with this model, although its should require a comment for negative and incomplete.
    alysmith4 likes this.
  29. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I don't think there are enough negative/bad trades to make the negative points have any impact. Total score is going to be a function of how much you trade, not how good you are. All it really takes is one bad experience to get on the bad trader list, so I can't fathom a world where somebody with more than 2-3 negatives would continue trading under that handle. Point being - I don't think it matters if you do 0, -1, -2, or even -5 for bad trades.

    As for trade timing... This should definitely be user set. I've had a few trades that purposefully spanned 2-3 months, so I'd have to go around the system for these if it automatically negged me after a couple of weeks or whatever.

    Likewise, average time is dangerous. I almost always ship within a week, but mutually agreed upon long shipping dates should not negatively impact ones profile by skewing average shipping time.
  30. alysmith4

    alysmith4 Initiate (0) Feb 11, 2005 District of Columbia

    I like this system the best. I keeps it completely objective, which will virtually eliminate hurt feelings and disagreements over what is an "awesome trade" and what not. Also, I think it takes a lot of the pressure off of going above and beyond. Extras, while a HUGE part of trading, are in fact - extra. They're supposed to be a pleasant surprise, in an otherwise agreed upon box (of beer that you really wanted in the first place). Besides, say I send extras that are good locals (but that my partner has no interest in), and my trade partner sends two beers off my wants list - do they "win" for being a better trader? Furthermore, if a trade partner and I agree "no extras this time" and then I go ahead and do it anyway and they don't - that's my problem, not theirs. Maybe funds are super tight for them or there are other circumstances coming into play, but they shouldn't be punished for doing something that we agreed upon in the first place.

    As far as the "incomplete" trade goes, instead of factoring it into the point scale - why not something separate like a "three strikes you're out" rule? This would resolve the issues of making several great trades and racking up points, only to screw someone over and then not have it effect your overall rating very much. Also, each "strike" would show as a big blemish on someones trading record so that it's obvious to proceed with caution when trading with them.
  31. Auror

    Auror Defender (635) Jan 1, 2010 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader


    It's easier to switch usernames than to redeem bad feedback if you know you screwed someone. As a result, seeing genuine poor feedback (as opposed to "No extras") on any potential trader will be a huge red flag. As a result, the community will pressure members to minimize bad feedback given out, and we're left essentially with a sanctioned Bad Trader list. At least that's how I see the cumulative point system playing out. It'll still accomplish something, since traders with say less than 5 points will be required to ship first (and I assume this practice will be more widely adapted since the points will be a visible newbie "flag"), and so any bad trader who switches names will be forced to do the same.
  32. wagenvolks

    wagenvolks Initiate (0) Sep 23, 2005 Texas

    Was wondering this myself.
  33. Franch

    Franch Devotee (450) Mar 22, 2011 District of Columbia
    Beer Trader

    exactly what i was thinking
  34. richardflyr

    richardflyr Aspirant (227) Jul 28, 2009 Connecticut
    Beer Trader

    I'm just wondering if one side just doesn't ship, why would they fill out feedback at all? And if they don't fill out feedback, if I am interpreting this right, there is no feedback posted. What happens if someone accepts a trade, doesn't ship, and then does nothing? Would bad feedback be posted then?

    Also, some useful stats would be date of last (successful?) trade and the user it was done with, number of unique users traded with, frequency of trades. Also being able to designate a trade as In Person vs Shipped would be useful.
    pcsnyder likes this.
  35. FishPondManager

    FishPondManager Aspirant (232) Feb 28, 2012 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    This is going to be a great new feature on BA. Awesome. I also like the dialog going on here.

    I think a simple positive/negative system would keep it simple. I think bad traders will continue to be weeded out and exposed via the boards.

    I like this question. Could it be added as a follow up question to any trade rated as positive? I've done a lot of trades that I'd rate as positive under this system, but I may not trade again with them. A follow up like that would allow some sort of quantifiable data for "great traders." You could even make that part anonymous. I guess itd be somewhat easy to know if a trader didnt check that box after a trade so you could roll into some sort of Karma bonus. Another option could be to have a set of follow ups after a positive trade that accumulate towards some sort of good trader bonus. Questions like were extras included, fast shipper, great communication, excellent packing, etc could all be used to reward going above and beyond.
    This is also a pretty good idea.
    alysmith4 likes this.
  36. JayORear

    JayORear Defender (601) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    This gets at something I've been thinking about the last couple of days . . . what, really, is the incentive for anyone to participate in the trader feedback system at all? Both parties could initiate trades the way they do now, and never touch the feedback system. I personally would participate just so that my good trading partners get a good trade history established, but I could imagine some people thinking it's just another hoop to jump through. Plus, like all feedback loops, it's going to tend to attract the more negative feedback; i.e., people wanting to punish/retaliate/etc. Just playing devil's advocate here; I still think it's a great idea, but wonder how you make it worth people's while.
  37. Thirsty_Rob

    Thirsty_Rob Initiate (0) Oct 7, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    How about a rating system like the system used to rate a beer? This is just a rough idea...

    Received negotiated bottles: Yes = +1; No = -3
    Extras: no extras/bad extras (like old IPA's) =0; Extras = +1; awesome extras= +2, N/A=agreed to not trade extras
    Trader shipped in a timely manner: Yes = +1; No = -1
    Bottles arrived undamaged: Yes = +1; No = -1

    Then a comment section can be used to explain the high/low points of the trade.. Like "Bottles were broken, but trader reshipped with extras" or "Awesome extras, but took a while to ship".

    The points can be averaged with a +5 being the highest and a -5 being the lowest.
    jgluck, fields336, ElderPuma and 4 others like this.
  38. mrcraft

    mrcraft Meyvn (1,373) Dec 15, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    I agree. On eBay, I sell occasionally, and while I leave feedback for everyone, I only receive about 60% feedback in return. I've been an eBay member since the late 90's, so receiving feedback or not does not really matter, but here on BA I'm still new, so every trade I complete without receiving feedback would be a considerable ding.

    I would favor a straightforward and objective, yet mandatory system. What if the positive, negative, incomplete choices are check marks, so all that is required is for both parties to click on one of three choices. Simple. If they can't at least do that, they shouldn't be trading. Then, make the comments section optional. While, ideally, I would like comments to be included with every trade feedback, I feel this additional step will prevent some from taking the time to participate in the feedback system.

    Also, by making it mandatory, it would prevent potential abuse of the system, by "delinquent" traders not completing feedback knowing that will avoid receiving negative/incomplete feedbacks on their profiles.
  39. pcsnyder

    pcsnyder Initiate (0) May 2, 2011 Pennsylvania

    I was wondering about this, too. I was thinking that maybe there should be a cutoff point, say 60 days after the first partner posts feedback. If the second trader doesn't post feedback within that time frame, there could be a system generated message to that effect that gets published instead. The feedback the first trader posted would be published at that point, and since the cutoff is passed, the second trader can't flame him/her with a bad rating.

    nsheehan likes this.
  40. JayORear

    JayORear Defender (601) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    But how can you make it mandatory? People can BM each other all they want, heck, even use regular e-mail or pick up the phone to make trades. There's just no realistic way to make people use feedback, and I'm not sure the Bros. would even want to. My impression is that setting up the feedback system is as close to "regulating" trading as they want to get, and I don't even think you can call it that.
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