Site Beer Trader Feedback: Sneak Peek (Part 1)

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, May 16, 2013.

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  1. richardflyr

    richardflyr Aspirant (227) Jul 28, 2009 Connecticut
    Beer Trader

    I think the idea is that you would have a discussion, and at the point where you're like "ok, this deal is set, I'll ship on Tuesday" you open a formal trade request to the user. They accept it and the terms, and then you both ship. If someone doesn't accept the trade request, then the idea is that the other person decides not to ship.

    Obviously if you decide to not use it, then you're not using it. That's fine. I know that as long as it is a smooth process, I'd likely politely insist on using it, and the hope is the majority of the traders would also. Why not?
  2. ThePorterSorter

    ThePorterSorter Meyvn (1,436) Aug 10, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    I've kept a relatively concise log of previous trades, 99% of which have been very successful, and would like to retroactively give credit to those good traders - fair?

    I see people worried about the 1 pt versus 2 pts difference, but I think it's the only feasible way to differentiate good from awesome :/ Unless you manage to separate the categories:

    Trade Completed as agreed, Yes (+) or No (-)
    Extras Likert : Trader included extras (1) <--> Trader blew me away with extras (5)
    Packaging Likert : Trader got lucky shipping (1) <--> Trader sent mobile fort knox of beer (5)
    Delivery Likert: Slow to ship or respond (1) <--> Very Rapid shipment (5)

    Then people wouldn't feel as badly about poor packaging/shipping speed/extras because it wouldn't negatively affect their overall completion of trade
  3. JayORear

    JayORear Defender (620) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Yes, sounds good . . . that places the "mandatory" aspect on the part of the trader, though, not the system itself. Works for me.
    richardflyr likes this.
  4. JayORear

    JayORear Defender (620) Feb 22, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Plus, someone's refusal to use the system would be a good red flag in and of itself.
    richardflyr likes this.
  5. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,553) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    I'm digesting all of the feedback (please keep it coming) and discussing with the team tomorrow so we can focus in on our development path and get an initial launch out as soon as possible.

    Thanks again for your input.
    ehammond1, richardflyr and alysmith4 like this.
  6. tommyz

    tommyz Devotee (420) May 28, 2007 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    My biggest belief is a bad trader needs to have a large penalty, or its just semantics... a -1 point honestly means nothing imo...We do have the bad trader list which is a huge plus (thanks oldport)..But as far as a bad trader goes, they need to be examples hit with the harshest penalty possible JMO..
    ElderPuma and alysmith4 like this.
  7. cfh64

    cfh64 Defender (602) Aug 16, 2005 Texas
    Supporter Beer Trader

    Wow...I love the fact that people are participating and have great ideas but I like your original idea of keeping it simple. A lot of other BA's have fantastic input but I like something that is quick, easy and to the point. I just hope that doesn't get lost in all of this with all the "what ifs". Hopefully you can incorporate many of these suggestions without making it too complicated or burdonsome.

    Overall though, fantastic idea and I'm excited to see you guys being progressive, taking suggestions and listening to us complain (which we are exceedingly good at). I've enjoyed watching this site evolve over the past several years and am looking forward to the on going improvements.
  8. CBlack85

    CBlack85 Crusader (703) Jul 12, 2009 South Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I'm really looking forward to this addition to the site. Will there be any way to catalog and get credit for past trades?
  9. UHCougar12

    UHCougar12 Disciple (379) Feb 21, 2011 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I say keep it simple and leave out the feedback. I wouldn't want someone to trade with me cause I sent "awesome extras", and then send "mediocre extras" the next trade and get penalized for it. A 5 star rating system would be too subjective, and would hurt traders feelings if they didn't get 5 stars. Either make it a Great-Agreed-Bad scoring system.
    jgluck likes this.
  10. Thehuntmaster

    Thehuntmaster Initiate (0) Sep 2, 2009 South Africa

    Just to clarify, is an incomplete trade a trade where the one of the traders refuses to ship out or if one of the traders decides to cancel the trade?
  11. Tballz420

    Tballz420 Meyvn (1,187) Mar 4, 2003 Minnesota

    Haven't read through it all, but I would go with:

    Trade results were:

    2) above expectations
    1) at expectations
    0/-1) below expectations
  12. hoerr

    hoerr Aspirant (230) Oct 18, 2009 South Carolina

    I almost feel like there needs to be one more level. I'm a novice trader, completing 3 trades, and I would rate all 3 of them 1pt, 2pt & 3pt. 1pt trade I got no extras - and that was my first trade, and after talking with an avid BA trader about how extras are the "Christmas morning" of beer trades, I was really disappointed - but the trade was still completed as proposed so it would be hard to "punish"... 2pts I got a couple extras on a 6btl trade. It was thankful and one of them was even discussed as a possible beer included in the trade - cool! Then there was the 3pt-er. 2 trade bottles +3 extras, all of which were awesome, styled me out!! This is a BA I want to trade with multiple times!

    I wouldn't go beyond 0-1-2-3, but that extra level could really encourage more thoughtfulness when BAs are packing that last beer into their trade boxes - which I think we all appreciate!
  13. BumpkinBrewer

    BumpkinBrewer Disciple (353) Jan 6, 2010 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    I don't trade often but trade feedback should have nothing to do with "extras", IMHO.
  14. richardflyr

    richardflyr Aspirant (227) Jul 28, 2009 Connecticut
    Beer Trader

    Honestly, I think it should be just 1 "point" for a completed trade, and a field for notes to note extras and whatnot. No need for bonus points, no 0 point items, no taking away points.

    When I look at a trader, I'd probably see how many points (effectively how many completed trades) they have, and then scan through the list of completed trades to see if there are any really negative or really outstanding notes.

    Ok here's the real question: would the trading mods be able to "ban" someone from the trader system, and would that put a mark on their profile? I think that should be the replacement for the Bad Trader list, but I can also see how that would be a huge amount of drama that the Bros don't want to involve themselves with.

    EDIT: Quick note, when viewing the feedback for a trade, I'd like to click and see both sides of the feedback, in case there was a disagreement.
  15. mborden

    mborden Initiate (172) Jan 28, 2009 New York

    I like this KISS approach. What if there was also a simple option of selecting "would trade with again" or "wouldn't trade with again"? Like hoerr mentioned above, some trades meet the criteria perfectly well but don't really jazz you up for one reason or another (bad extra, poor communication, put a canister of peanuts in your box as a noisemaker and you're deathly allergic), and you don't necessarily look forward to trading with them again. It's less than name calling or butt hurt, but gives a little more insight into how both parties feel post trade. And if I see a trader who has 20 "would trade with again" and 1 "wouldn't trade with" on their record, I'd probably reach out to that one trader who gave them the "wouldn't trade with" to see what was up and make a judgement call on my own. This is kind of similiar to how some people update their profiles now anyway, and I think the most useful thing about a centrally tracked trading system is that I don't have to search profiles and cross reference before trading. This could give me a handy list.

    It would also be cool to be able to track and give props for one sided "trades" (i.e. on the receiving end of BIF/LIF or getting a random awesome box from a trade partner), but I can also see how this might be a pain to implement.
    richardflyr and nsheehan like this.
  16. nsheehan

    nsheehan Devotee (461) Jul 3, 2011 Texas
    Beer Trader


    The thought that filling out four or five data fields with radio buttons (which takes all of 20 seconds), and a comments field is too complicated makes me concerned that whoever can't take a minute to do this after spending perhaps hours discussing, buying, packaging, and shipping beer shouldn't be trusted driving a car to buy and ship the beer. If someone really wants to avoid it, trade without using the system. But as said above, I'd be wary of that. Do you want to trade with someone who won't take a minute to give feedback when it's done? (Flag for possible communication problems or laziness).

    Also, concern about hurting other BA's feelings is well-placed, but not really relevant. The trade falls along a spectrum from worst (6er of bud light lime shows up) to best (a Uhaul of white whales shows up). Generally trades will fall in between Poor and Excellent, and if someones does an average job or below, they will only know that if their feedback received is average or below. Perhaps Trader A really tried but Trader B has had the five local distro extras Trader A included. That sucks, but I don't think Trader A should feel mortally dishonored if the trade gets rated good instead of great.

    The system can be called as objective as you want, but if Trader A has done a few great trades with great extras, and then does a pretty good trade with Trader B and receives one good extra, I could see Trader A being conditioned to think his good trade is slightly below average. So how objective can it stay?
    ElderPuma likes this.
  17. mrcraft

    mrcraft Meyvn (1,415) Dec 15, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    I see threads about giving subjective point value to extras. In my opinion, extras have no bearing on feedback ratings at all. A trade is successful if it meets its two main objectives: 1) agreed upon beers are safely exchanged, and 2) in a timely fashion, again timelines agreed to by both parties.
    seeswo and beertunes like this.
  18. youradhere

    youradhere Devotee (491) Feb 29, 2008 Washington
    Beer Trader

    I would say this would be a great idea, but grade inflation has some notorious blow-backs. The military rates on a 1-5 scale, 1 you need to go, and 5 you walk on water. Grade inflation had made it over the last decade that 5 was the norm, and now in readjusting the scores to reflect their appropriate value (instead of giving and auto 5, actual thought go into the rating) some military members careers suffer, as some leaders feel that all younger members only deserve a 3, while other leaders still hand out perfunctory 5s. My point: some traders will suffer from the point scale as some raters will be sticklers, while others hand out 5s to everyone, it won't accurately reflect the trader being rated in other words. I know the reply will be "just have everyone rate accurately then"; this doesn't happen as people are either dumb, lazy, or ae spectrum combination of be two.

    My suggestion: pass/fail. You either are, or are not a good trader. 1 point or 0 point.
    jgluck, richardflyr, jl28r1 and 2 others like this.
  19. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Initiate (0) Nov 22, 2007 Washington

    How about under and over achiever?
  20. Eriktheipaman

    Eriktheipaman Savant (979) Sep 4, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

    Maybe you could allow the people who initiate the trade to click the "time frame"?

    Another important thing would be to allow the traders to always edit their postings. I've received many extra unsolicited boxes from past traders months down the road and it would be important to me to be able to edit the feedback.
  21. whiskey

    whiskey Aspirant (274) Feb 25, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    The values mean nothing. What does a "25" next to a name mean if the guy has 30 good trades but his last 5 were bad? A number means nothing as far as this person's current standing as a beer trader.

    We need a number of positive trades and a number of negative trades. And then clear up the details with comments(i.e. "awesome xtras!" or "no extras, but sent agreed upon bottles").
    Onenote81, richardflyr and ElderPuma like this.
  22. aasher

    aasher Poo-Bah (2,572) Jan 27, 2010 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    Then I suggest that negative reviews are automatically at the top of a person's feedback regardless of date.
    Photekut and tommyz like this.
  23. ElderPuma

    ElderPuma Initiate (0) Jul 27, 2012

    This is dead on. If it is only based on counting and cumulative stats it means nothing. And as this has been discussed a few times over now, as much as I want to keep this simple, I don't think you can. Maybe it is just me, but if we are going to effectively have an app to rate and grade the people who trade don't we want more than the bare minimum for information? I mean sure it is nice to know if the trade got completed but there are many levels of completed trades. Sometimes you get no extras - I would never trade with that individual again even though they fulfilled as agreed. Sometimes you get amazing extras and end up developing a fantastic "partnership" as a result of a well done trade. I want to know about these differences when choosing who I am going to conduct business with.
  24. ElderPuma

    ElderPuma Initiate (0) Jul 27, 2012

    For what it is worth, if I had to set up a system for this here is all of the information I would want to know and the best way I can see to implement a scoring guide:

    Trade Completed on time with no problems +1
    Trade not completed on time or completed with unresolved issues -5

    Basically that first questions comes down to was the trade completed as expected or agreed to? If not, it was a bad trade and should be punished severely. If it was completed on time but say the shipment was half busted and the trader went MIA it is then a bad trade. Pretty cut and dry, either good or bad with the expectation being that it was good.

    Once it is determined if the trade was completed you can then answer how well it was completed.

    Amazing extras - +2
    Extras included - +1
    No Extras or bad extras (say Bud light etc.) +0

    Consider that to be the bonus points category. If you include extras all the time and sometimes throw awesome extras you should be rewarded and I would want to know this. If you never include extras that is fine, but then I want to know that too.

    You can then total all of the points, provide an average of the points per trade, and provide a percentage of times the trader completes the trade (better be 100% for everyone if we are all good people), and maybe even provide a percentage of time the trader received maximum feedback points.

    Just my $0.02
  25. Ruger

    Ruger Initiate (0) Aug 15, 2010 Kentucky
    Beer Trader

    I thought about that too but I guess negative feedback suffices enough on ones karma.
  26. Michigan

    Michigan Initiate (0) Oct 24, 2012 Michigan

    What about doing something with the words under a person's name? Something to notify the community of a bad trader with a single look. I think a Karma punishment would be effective to those who care about the site, but bad traders usually don't. I think legitimate 'Bad Traders' should have a permanent mark on their profile and a ban from trading on the site (yes, I am asking for "banning"...)

    I think the number thing is a good idea, but it needs to be simple! -1/0/1
  27. seeswo

    seeswo Initiate (0) Jan 10, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Seriously - extras should not be a part of any point system. That info can be in individual feedback. 1 point for successful trade, -1 for unsuccessful. List individually the total, and count of each category. Allow limited written feedback. It's so easy that way. No need for a complicated system.
    GottaTickemAll and JohnGalt1 like this.
  28. Lledd

    Lledd Initiate (0) Apr 23, 2013 Massachusetts

    Totally awesome.
  29. AlexHouston

    AlexHouston Initiate (161) May 19, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Starting out with a simpler process would be the better way to go, something like the eBay system a few people mention in earlier posts. This way, as I review offers after an ISO:FT post, I can click on the profile and just make sure the trades for the person have something like a 90% success rating. Then a person can tag me as the other person in the trade and we rank each other and add notes, describing anything special or noteworthy about the trade. That way, if you see a trader keeps having notes about taking a while to trade, it would make me hesitant to pull the trigger. Or you could say you want to stay in person, meaning you don't want to ship.

    After I think about it a little, it seems like this is just a refined way of snuffing out the bad traders, which is good for all of us. That way more beer is shared and everyone leaves happy.
  30. GarthDanielson

    GarthDanielson Poo-Bah (4,710) Nov 6, 2010 Virginia
    Beer Trader

    I have yet to dip my toes into trading, but this feature would definitely provide me more confidence/knowledge base to feel comfortable joining the trading community! Great work!
  31. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,553) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber

    Update: This project is currently on hold, but will be picked up again once the core of our site redesign is complete.

    Thanks again for your feedback.
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