Beer Trading & Beer Karma

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by Todd, May 9, 2013.

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  1. AnnArborJoe

    AnnArborJoe Jan 18, 2011 Michigan

    I would hope this should be at least a possibility with a pay-for-play situation. The It Forward forum was a free-for-all in the past and didn't seem to be an issue until the somewhat recent crackdown. Memes/trolling/animated GIFs/poking fun at each other can be done within a reasonable set of rules (no porn/hate speech/violent images/physical threats) while everybody still has fun. I understand how this can detract from a serious discussion in other forums, but I would like to see the camaraderie return to the one area of the site where generosity abounds. Give the "troublemakers" somewhere to fuck around and I'd think we would all behave better in the rest of the forums.
  2. MagnusBrewing

    MagnusBrewing Mar 26, 2009 New Jersey

    Agree 100%

    1. People may not contribute with reviews, hads or posts but do with extended site traffic
    2. Don't understand how having beer karma correlates with a good trader
    3. Trading feedback needs to be implemented (I know it's coming so no need to post a link to whatever announcements are out there)
    Thirsty_Rob likes this.
  3. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    When you pay to use something that someone else owns, there's typically always rules.
  4. Hanzo

    Hanzo Feb 27, 2012 Virginia

    Are we talking about a pay system to use the site in general or just the trade section?
  5. kdmcguire10

    kdmcguire10 Jul 15, 2011 Michigan

    I personally would prefer some combination of time and "beer karma" versus one or the other. For example, I believe the site would be vastly improved if new accounts (say, 3 months or newer) had only read-only privileges. This would prevent a lot of useless/vapid thread topics and thread shitting by the more experienced users. I wouldn't unlock trading privileges for any user that hasn't been on here at least a year. Sorry, but that's just the way it needs to be. That way, they have some experience before offering up a Speedway Stout for a Dark Lord Variant.

    The problem with just using Beer Karma to unlock privileges is it provides an incentive to accumulate points by posting even more useless crap, thus diluting the value of the site even more.

    The value of this site lies in the content and thoughtful information that its users provide. No offense, but my experience has been that the users who have been on here at least 6 months provide the most "useful" information, care the most, and provide the most thought-provoking content. Threads like "one beer for the rest of your life..go" or "Does anyone know what's on tap at Founders?" just make me want to give up.

    I'm all for helping the new guys get into craft. Heck, that's part of what Advocacy is all about. They don't let interns jump right in on a heart surgery.....they make them observe for awhile and pay their dues first.
    davey101 and Sarlacc83 like this.
  6. Thirsty_Rob

    Thirsty_Rob Oct 7, 2012 California

    If BA needs cash, why not add "Premium Member" accounts that allow more mailbox storage, a signature and a spiffy "premium member" title.

    Or, more advertisements?

    And to control the rowdy's, make an off topic forum with insta-bans for any political or religious threads.

    Fact: BA Kopi Speedway is cheaper and better than BVDL.
  7. BAstoutsNsours

    BAstoutsNsours Sep 21, 2012 Florida

    I think if this turned into a pay-2-play situation it would be best (for BA) if the other site(s) were on the same page.

    I understand the need to control growth, but some of these controls I think would go too far. I'm trying to be as objective as possible here and look at this long term. I regularly contribute so I don't think this would affect me, I'm just thinking about how it would affect the evolution of BA.

    I wish I could think up a better solution but I'm (admittedly) at a loss. The only I could think of would be to limit the amount of posts newbies could make per week/month or whatever. That limit could expand from week to week over the course of a couple months or whatever the mods deem acceptable.
  8. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Not sure anyone is saying it does, but rather that it might be an option for gaining privileges.
  9. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    What business doesn't need cash? :wink:

    The suggestion of paying wasn't made as we're desperate to generate revenue, but rather that people tend to respect/value things a bit more when they pay for them.
    Michigan likes this.
  10. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Sure. It's nice to have the extra pageviews generated by beer traders, but honestly it's not critical to our success as a business. We could easily axe beer trading all together, which would save hours a week in dealing with with moderation issues/trouble users caused by beer trading posts/conversations. Pageviews or getting hours a week of our lives back? Hmm ...

    That said, I understand what beer trading means to others. So I'd rather explore solutions again vs. having to axe beer trading, which is why I started this thread and similar ones in the past.

    As far as a beer trading feedback system goes, I have no doubt that it would help beer traders better qualify others, but I'm not convinced it'll save us those hours a week. Regardless, and as others have stated, it needs to happen so we'll start looking at making it happen.

    Let's keep the discussion going. It's a good one and I'm confident we can find a solution.
    tehzachatak and cavedave like this.
  11. Thirsty_Rob

    Thirsty_Rob Oct 7, 2012 California

    Yeah I hear you. Every business does need revenues. Keeping the lights on isn't cheap. It seems like BA could stand to generate more revenues between increasing advertisements and premium memberships. You can pay me in beer karma to reach out to potential clients.

    Question: I'm fairly new here so I don't know the past history of the site, but why doesn't BA have more volunteer Moderators? This is the first forum I've been on that seems to have zero moderator presence.

    Also, I have another idea. Is there a way to limit the amount of trade threads a user can make in ISO:FT? Like, you can post 10 trades a month, 1 trade a week/day, etc.
  12. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Including myself and Jason, there's 7 of us who have mod access.
  13. Bad_Trader

    Bad_Trader Nov 8, 2012 Namibia

    Long Lining like a champ. Well played.
  14. Thirsty_Rob

    Thirsty_Rob Oct 7, 2012 California

    Gotcha. Maybe you need more since you guys have a lot on your plate in terms of running events, the magazine and the business side? I can see how modding ISO:FT could be very annoying...
  15. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Throwing more mods at this won't necessarily solve the core issues; bad traders and trolls.
  16. AnnArborJoe

    AnnArborJoe Jan 18, 2011 Michigan

    Dedicated set of moderators for the beer trading forum?
    I'm sure there are lots of BAs who wouldn't necessarily have clean enough records to be full-time mods, but I'd bet you would have willing participants for mods to the trading forum.
    FTowne likes this.
  17. Ataraxia

    Ataraxia Sep 20, 2012 California

    Finding forum members who are active but objective and minimally biased, as well as willing to be moderators is not necessarily a simple matter.

    Limiting the number of ISO:FT threads a user can make per unit of time may be a solution to those who delete and remake their threads once they get pushed off the front page.

    Still not quite sure what beer karma is good for; when I saw it, the first thing I thought of was "great, another trivial metric". At the moment it appears to be based on forum post quantity, which is quite open to manipulation by users making posts that are brief one-liners, devoid of any useful information, or simply reiterates another post. Also, duplicate threads may be made because the someone wants to boost their beer karma by starting their own thread to post multiple times in.
  18. match1112

    match1112 Mar 2, 2011 Illinois

    Because nobody has abused alcohol that they spent good money on.
    ObiWanKushnobi and davey101 like this.
  19. Hugonaut13

    Hugonaut13 Nov 29, 2012 Illinois

    On the subject of paying to play in ISO:FT, it doesn't seem like the best option. There's plenty of other places to trade beer and not have to pay for it. That would just bring less traffic to that section. (Unless, that's what you're going for) if a major change was implemented with it, like some kind of rating/tracking system, then it would become worthwhile.
  20. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    There's no need to attempt to derail the thread. I believe you get my general point.
  21. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    ... and if a thread/reply actually needs to be reported?
  22. Jparkanzky

    Jparkanzky Apr 5, 2011 Ohio

    I'd pay to use ISO:FT if it means that most of the ridiculous traders would opt out. You'd still have the occasional professional Cam-Newton type-A's who would pay, but it would cut a lot of fat off to just make it a pay feature.
    FTowne likes this.
  23. 1noa

    1noa Mar 24, 2011 Virginia

    I'd like to think i'm a pretty good trader on BA and i've put in some good time on the site. I only have 119 Karma points. I'm sure there are others similar to mine. I wouldn't want to see a very high point requirement but a reasonable one.
    beefmental likes this.
  24. Ataraxia

    Ataraxia Sep 20, 2012 California

    Message a moderator.

    I'm not sure how rigorous the vetting process is for deciding whether to delete a reported post or not, but it seems to me that random trollspeople run around reporting posts for no good reason. The end result is deletion in order to err on the side caution.
  25. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    The mod tools allow us to effectively take care of reports, discuss and track them. Bypassing this would be very inefficient and ultimately create even more work.
  26. nate321

    nate321 Nov 8, 2011 Washington

    I am not sure how I feel about this. I have been a member of the site since 2011, even before that I read the forums a lot. I took my time reading the trading forums to make sure I was doing it right and wasn't going to screw myself or someone else. I have only been an active trader for the last year or so, but have made quite a few trades. I also have a few friends on here who are OG's who could vouch for me being serious about my beer and being a Beer Advocate.

    That being said I have less than 20 karma points.

    I don't post a whole lot, I am more of a lurker. I have an app on my phone where I reviewed quite a few beers, but I don't post them anywhere. I wasn't confident enough in my palate early on, and didn't want to post 2 sentence reviews. I didn't want to look like the n00b beer geek that I was.

    I already pay for the magazine, I am not sure how I would feel about having to pay for the trading forums when there are free alternatives out there. I think if it were to be a combination of karma points and time, then I would be okay with that. Make it a few months of being a member before you can read the trading forums.
    Lorianneb likes this.
  27. Roger85

    Roger85 Aug 24, 2012 Illinois

    What about a time requirement + beer karma requirement OR a pay to post option for the ISO:FT section. That way you get either people who have paid money to post trade offers (and I don't think many people would pay to get threadshitted on) or people who have put in the time and effort to be able to post in that section. Seems to me that would get out most of the horrible trade offers that you see and a lot of the threadshitting.
  28. AnnArborJoe

    AnnArborJoe Jan 18, 2011 Michigan

    You could clearly state that the report button in ISO:FT should only be used for specific requirements (porn/hate speech/violent images/physical threats). As Rempo said, post sorting by creation date makes "problem" threads easily forgotten.
    FTowne likes this.
  29. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Forgotten for some, but still there and possibly active.
  30. GRDave

    GRDave Oct 7, 2011 Michigan

    A couple ideas.....

    1) All this talk of correlation between beer karma and bad traders. Maybe oldp0ort can pull the karma stat from each user on the bad trader list.

    2) The discussion seems to be centering on building up karma points to gain access to trade or post in the trade forums. What about a system where creating a thread in the ISO:FT forum takes away karma points? You'd essentially be paying to play, but with accumulated karma points. Post too many ISO:FT in a short period of time, you'd need to rebuild your karma.
    tehzachatak likes this.
  31. chuckycheese

    chuckycheese Feb 18, 2010 Maine

    The trade forum will always have problems, but none of the problems I've encountered have ever made me think "hmmm, if only it could be like way is better".

    Threads shouldn't get bumped to top with new posts, that was a good change.

    Pay to use/beer karma/time delays/reviews+post count-it's all unnecessary and way too involved. Less is more.
  32. forgetfu

    forgetfu Jul 27, 2007 Colorado

    Karma: Bringing upon oneself inevitable results, good or bad, either in this life or in a reincarnation

    I always thought Karma was based on the quality of one's actions, not the quantity. However, this system rewards the quantity of one's participation. I look at most of the active posters with thousands of karma. Most of them have received warnings or timeouts. They have posted meme's, and cracked jokes, and had fun. I enjoy reading what they post. But that activity is specifically against the rules. And yet, they have the highest Karma. Karma's a bitch.

    I try to contribute, but I avoid having fun on here, because I want to stick around and post without getting warned, put on time-out, or banned. I do this primarily because of the trading forums. But I do contribute in cellaring or Beer Trading Help when I have something meaningful to add. I miss the days when people could have fun without being labelled trolls. On the bright side, at least the 'trolls' still have the top karma.

    How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.
  33. JRSD

    JRSD Oct 27, 2006 California

    I would suggest that if you institute a Karma rule for the ISO:FT that it apply to members who have joined more recently. Perhaps for join dates after the redesign or after 1/1/12.
  34. Todd

    Todd Founder Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    • That's a gross exaggeration. Some do, but nowhere near most.
    • People can still have fun without being a dick/breaking rules/being labeled as a troll.
    • Karma is not Beer Karma.
  35. forgetfu

    forgetfu Jul 27, 2007 Colorado

    • Fair enough.
    • I guess, though I admit that it shapes my use of the site. Before I click "Post Reply" on everything I write, I have to take a moment to think "is this going to get me put on timeout". That's a shame.
    • Very true. Though my point is that the system doesn't do a very good job of rewarding the quality of one's contributions. It just focuses on the quantity. I would think that quality contributions would be important to the site. Obviously, that's not easy to fix. Post:Like ratio is at least a measure of the community's recognition of the quality of one's contributions in the forums. Likes on ratings could have the same effect.
  36. Sarlacc83

    Sarlacc83 Mar 2, 2008 Oregon

    Instead of beer karma points, maybe new traders should have to take an ethics test first. It's then posted on your profile so we can all see what kind of trader you are.

    Question 1:
    Which is more enjoyable - delivering a box which puts a grin on your trade partner's face or receiving a box where you paid less than you had to in order to get the beer you want?

    I'm not sure if this is a serious suggestion or not...

    Edit: If people lie on this test, it could be reported and noted in their profile, too...
    davey101 likes this.
  37. mcbeerbrew

    mcbeerbrew Feb 9, 2011 California

    All I really do on BA is trade, keep tabs on local events and use it to stay in touch with BA friends that don't live in Chicago. That said, just from a rough observation seems like most of the harmless hijinx exists in the BIF thread, and the real:
    exists throughout the rest of the site in just about every beer release thread and more, while the actual ISO:FT seems pretty tame to me. Most threads there never even reach 2 pages, and trade posts just come and go.

    So I'm curious to know what real % of being a dick/reporting comes from the ISO:FT thread. Seems like trading is always getting unfairly called out. I don't know if your mod features or analytics break that down.

    Also not familiar with websites charging for something other than content (NYTimes, Hulu, adult sites, etc.) Is this common? I can't think of any examples.

    Thanks for engaging the community in the conversation.
    Michigan, ehammond1, libbey and 4 others like this.
  38. AnnArborJoe

    AnnArborJoe Jan 18, 2011 Michigan

    I guess I'm not understanding what is the underlying problem - is it the mods have to deal with too many reports associated with beer trading, or beer trading tends to be the area where lots of people are "being a dick/breaking rules/being labeled as a troll"?

    If the issue is the mods spend too much time dealing with "problem" threads in ISO:FT - remove/revise the reporting requirements for ISO:FT. If a few people are threadshitting/bickering in a thread buried on page 15 and nobody is reporting the thread based on revised reporting rules (porn/hate speech/violent images/physical threats), how is that a problem to either the mods or the remainder of the BA population?

    If the issue is there are too many people "being a dick/breaking rules/being labeled as a troll", I'm certainly not the dick/rulebreaker/troll person to consult on this issue.
  39. beefmental

    beefmental May 26, 2005 Iowa

    I've been a member since 2005 and have 42 Karma points. I truly enjoyed beer trading. I've met some great people and had the opportunity to trade for and drink some world class beer that I cannot get in my part of the country. The way I see it, a beer karma point minimum is proposed to address problems with trading. For the good of the BA community I'm in favor of measures to address the problems. If a beer karma point minimum is decided please make the point minimum obtainable. I don't think I have the palate or creativity to put together a useful beer review, but I admit I could do more to contribute in other ways to collect points.
    flexabull likes this.
  40. vurt

    vurt Apr 11, 2004 Oregon

    I would suggest that post:like ratio is a measure of popularity, not necessarily quality.
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