Belgian Tripel/Quad

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by EvenMoreJesus, Jul 6, 2018.

  1. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
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    Going to be brewing the base beer for this project this weekend. Would certainly like any and all comments and suggestions that you might be able to send my way. The recipe is loosely based off of these two recipes:

    http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westmalle_tripel_-_041.pdf

    http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_040.pdf

    For 5.5 gallons:

    14 lbs. Belgian Pils

    Single infusion mash @ 150F until conversion complete

    First gallon of run-off boiled with 2 lbs. of white sugar until reduced by at least 1/2.

    Main beer boiled for 1 hour for concentration and protein coagulation.

    Cool to 180F and add 6 oz. Saaz

    Cool and pitch WLP530 - Westmalle

    Original Gravity 1.089
    Terminal Gravity 1.011
    Color 5.04 SRM
    Bitterness 0.0 IBU (obviously this isn't accurate, but whatever)
    Alcohol (%volume) 10.3%

    Ferment for one week, rack off of trub, and split the batch with one half remaining "plain" and the other getting 2 lbs. of D90 syrup.

    Original Gravity 1.125
    Terminal Gravity 1.015
    Color 38.88 °SRM
    Bitterness 0.0 IBU (again, not accurate)
    Alcohol (%volume) 14.8 %

    Ferment until a stable terminal has been reached and bottle in punted champagne bottles with 3 volumes of CO2.

    What do you guys think?
     
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  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,649) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium

    “WLP530 – Westmalle”

    I personally have never brewed with WLP530 but I have brewed many, many times with the Wyeast ‘version’ of 3787.

    Every person will have their own preferences for yeast derived flavors but it has been my consistent preference that the beers that I brew using 3787 (BPA, Dubbel, Triple, Quad, etc.) come out best with a warm ferment of around 72-73 degrees F. At that temperature this yeast produces a glorious mix of esters (fruity flavors) and phenols (spicy flavors). As to whether WLP530 behaves the same?

    When it comes to Belgian Ales such as Abbey/Trappist style beers I am of the opinion that yeast selection and fermentation conditions are the ‘drivers’ for these beers.

    Cheers!

    P.S. I have brewed with other strains (e.g., 1762) but nothing beats 3787 fermented warm for my palate.
     
  3. LakesideBrewing

    LakesideBrewing Initiate (91) Dec 1, 2013 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I’ve brewed both of those recipes from Candisyrup.com and they both came out awesome! I don’t think I would substitute white sugar for the Candi syrup.
     
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  4. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    The adding sugar to first runnings and reducing thing-y that I do isn't really meant to be a substitute for candi sugar, but I like what it brings to the table regardless. FWIW, I also use it in my IPAs with very good results.
     
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  5. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,748) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium

    \
    My attempt at the Averagely Perfect Dubbel went high, and probably was 72-76 during the bulk of the fermentation. Granted, the sample I just took was a fermenter sample, prior to yeast drop, not carbed, etc, but pretty tasty. Used the Imperial Organic Triple Double, which is comparable to 3787.
     
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  6. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (246) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Sounds like an awesome recipe. Are you using styrian goldings?
     
  7. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (246) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    The Belgian single I made is a hit and it was only pilsner, 3787 via monastatic imperial organic, styrian goldings and some saaz. Actually pretty buzzed of of it right now
     
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  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,462) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania

    You could call it Double Preposition Single.
     
  9. NorCalKid

    NorCalKid Initiate (97) Jan 10, 2018 California

    Ya man, sounds awesome. I was kicking around an idea of a Belgium Blonde with Imperial Yeasts “Triple/Double”. w/ Enigma hops. Pils malt but with flaked wheat added. But a simple mash procedure.
     
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  10. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (246) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I actually called it “Mower Monk” since it’s so refreshing and low abv
     
  11. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Would have loved to, but HopsDirect only had Saaz available. No biggie.

    Looks like his funny went over your head. Too much Mower Monk, apparently. :wink:
     
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  12. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (246) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Wow that went right over :astonished:
     
  13. Beerswimmer

    Beerswimmer Initiate (108) Mar 4, 2013 Texas

    I like everything except for racking after a week. It'll probably still be going pretty strong then, I would just let it finish. Then you can bottle the Tripel half, and add the candi syrup to other. D-90 might be lighter than you expect for a quad, I use 180 & 240.
     
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  14. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I certainly understand your thoughts on this, but I have a few reasons for doing it.

    1) I want to pull some yeast over so that I can reuse it

    2) I want the beer to still be fermenting so that when I add the D90 it won't be an issue for them

    3) It's always nice to have active CO2 production if you're going to bulk age for a little

    I'll be adding 2 lbs. of it to what will probably be a little less than 3 gallons. That'll probably make it chestnut brown, but nothing super dark. Plus I REALLY like D90. Not that 180 or 240 are "bad", but they certainly bring more of the roasted character that I don't want in this beer.
     
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  15. epk

    epk Initiate (163) Jun 10, 2008 New Jersey

    Interesting idea and methods here. I never really thought about doing a tripel base and making a quad from half of it in this manner.

    I have aromatic and special B in my quad grist. But I could see you getting some of those flavors from the D90 - is that the idea?

    Also, other than a simple malt syrup of sorts, what exactly do you get from boiling the table sugar with a gallon of the first runnings? And I wonder if a splash of it would play nice in an Old Fashioned, lol.
     
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  16. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Exactly.

    Just concentration of both flavor and sugar.

    That's an idea.
     
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  17. JohnnyChicago

    JohnnyChicago Crusader (794) Sep 3, 2010 Illinois

    Looks sweet!

    I’ve got a couple of ideas...
    1. I always step mash my Belgian beers. I know...it’s a hot topic lately. But it’s really not that big of a PITA, and if you don’t have direct control over mash tun temp, decoction is actually super easy and kinda fun. I won’t PROMISE that it will make the beer better, but it could, and it will be surprising fun! :stuck_out_tongue:
    2. Long brew. I have a theory that some of the awesome character that Belgian beers have is from the amount of time that occurs between mashout and cool-in. Some of those old abbey breweries are doing like 4 hour lauters and 2 hour boils, all the while developing badass melanoidans and other kettle compounds. Extending the lauter or the boil is a great way to ‘complexify’ an all-pils mash.
    3. LOVE the idea of a simple all-pils grist. I would say to complex it up by using pils malts from multiple suppliers. It’s a great way to get a ton of tiny complexities...
     
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  18. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Meyvn (1,051) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I like your idea and plan.

    A couple things that I have learned from trying similar things.

    - as mentioned, 3787 does not mind warm temps. In my opinion, it is necessary otherwise the fermentation derived aromas and flavors are too clean. Definitely not enough Belgian character in my mind. I've taken a quad up to 82-84° and the result was much more complex than the same beer fermenting at ambient.

    - I used D180 and boiled down for added complexity. It worked out better for me than not boiling down D180. You might consider it for the D90 as well.

    - Westvleteren 12 has a lot of complexity and I don't think it's all achievable thorough candi sugar alone. I would add a specialty malt or two if Westvleteren is the goal.

    - good call on the bottle conditioning
     
    #18 FeDUBBELFIST, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  19. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Wanted to thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. They are all much appreciated and I will very probably use many of them in future projects. I'll post updates on this one as this project progresses. As of right now, active fermentation is just kicking off because I massively underpitched to give the yeast an increased log phase and, in turn, increase ester production. I also pitched a little warmer than usual, so that should help, as well. Still planning on fermenting at ambient to prevent fusel/higher alcohol production and keep ethyl acetate production in check. I want these beers to be ester-forward, but not ester bombs, if you know what I mean.
     
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  20. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    I'm doing a very similar brew (3gal batch) that I'm going to pitch onto a cake of 530 from a Belgian single/"patersbier." First time brewing either style and first time reusing a cake!
     
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  21. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    That's pretty boss. Please update us!
     
  22. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Nice call, man. As of this morning, it definitely was, so I might give it some additional time before racking.
     
  23. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,238) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado

    Unless it has Brett, is aged on wood, or utilized London 3 I'm afraid it's going to be terrible. Just send it all to me and it will be properly dealt with.
     
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  24. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Just racked and split the batch this morning. The quad isn't super dark, but it's where I'd like it to be. Nice contrast between the tripel and the quad with the fermenters sitting beside each other. Will bottle the tripel next week and save the yeast from the fermenter for the next batch. The quad probably the week after that.
     
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  25. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Cleaning 750s and coming up with some label art.

    The Tripel is called "The Furies"

    [​IMG]

    The quad, "The Fates"

    [​IMG]
     
  26. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    My patersbier is chugging away on the 3rd day in the fermenter, though the 530 took almost two full days to really take off. Airlock smells great. Missed the OG by a few points (need to adjust my boiloff in BeerSmith) so I'm going to add 1/4lb sugar to the primary.
     
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  27. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,748) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    You know how they say you first drink with your eyes? My eyes are drunk. Really pleasantly smashed.
     
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  28. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
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    I used to get WAY more into naming and labeling my beers. Mostly the sour and funky ones, but big beers usually got them as well. Everyday drinkers, not so much. Since I've been brewing less, I haven't been doing it, so this was a nice excuse to find names and art to go along with it. Bit of a creative outlet, if you will.
     
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  29. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Aspirant (246) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Glad your brewing a bit. It’s helpful to have knowledgeable people still active in the hobby.
     
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  30. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    Well, looks like my patersbier has picked up an off-flavor. The usual Belgian flavors are there, but it's vaguely medicinal. I think the yeast was old or damaged (possibly frozen?), since it took so long to get going. I guess I can't brew the quad on the cake as planned. :slight_frown:
     
  31. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Ever ferment with Brett?
     
  32. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    I have, but not in this house/with any of this gear. It doesn't really taste like Brett, either.

    The good news is that it seems to be going away as the beer conditions in the FV.
     
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  33. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
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    That's good to hear, because if it wasn't, that description usually means Brett or chlorophenols. I don't know which is worse.
     
  34. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    A patersbier with the right Brett would probably be delightful, but yeah... not so good when accidental.
     
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  35. redgorillabreath

    redgorillabreath Initiate (127) Mar 29, 2015 Pennsylvania

    One I’ve made that may be along these lines got good reviews, even from a colleague in Austria. FWIW...
    10 gallon batch
    17 lb Maris Otter
    2# Malted Rye
    1# Carapils
    2# Japanese Knotweed Honey (raw)
    Centenial: 0.6 oz@60 min, 0.4 oz @ 20 min, 1oz @ 15 min, 1oz @FO
    400 ml WLP565 slurry, 2nd gen

    OG= 1.059 (honey added during fermentation)
    FG= 1.0006

    Carb w/ sucrose syrup to 2.4 vol

    To me, the yeast was quite pronounced, but still very refreshing; tough to not have at least 2 bottles in a sitting. This honey contributed its own tartness (very different from clover honey), which worked well with the rye and Centennial.
     
  36. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Bottled both of these over the weekend. Will post reviews once they are carbonated and conditioned, (possibly with pics, but I wouldn't hold your collective breath) but preliminary indications are very good.
     
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  37. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    Brewed the quad this weekend. Overshot the volume quite a bit, so I was about 15 points under (1.083 vs. 1.100), but that's alright. It'll still be tasty and I can always pump some more sugar into it if I want to.

    Bottled the maybe Brett-y patersbier. Finished at like 1.004, which would seem to indicate there was something extra in there. The off-taste mellowed substantially over the three weeks it was in primary, though, so I'll let it sit a while longer in the bottle and see what happens.
     
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  38. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    More likely volatile thiols/mercaptans, than Brett.
     
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  39. deadwolfbones

    deadwolfbones Initiate (69) Jun 21, 2014 California

    Perhaps! However, the surface of the beer in the fermenter had a bit of a slick on it, and there was something that might be construed as a very small pellicle as well. Could have just been lingering sacc clumps, though.

    Check this out:

    [​IMG]
     
    #39 deadwolfbones, Aug 13, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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  40. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Champion (841) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    That definitely looks like a biofilm/pellicle.
     
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