Blonde "stout"

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by danedelman, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Trying to make a "whoa" type beer here and didn't know if anyone can give suggestions. I know a stout is dark but want to get those chocolate/roasty/coffee flavors in a blonde or light SRM ale. Thinking of using white baking chocolate so it's no sweet and just trying to figure out roast without darkness.

    Any suggestions welcome please!! Also trying to get a friend of mine who loves black coffee and says " I don't like dark beers" on his way down the stout path. Thanks!!
  2. kbuzz

    kbuzz Champion (849) Jan 22, 2011 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    This is so counterintuitive that I can't wrap my head around it. I have no suggestions. However, I would love to trade you some of my homebrew for a bottle of this if you make it happen...good luck!
    RStang13, danedelman and TheMonkfish like this.
  3. TheMonkfish

    TheMonkfish Initiate (0) Jan 8, 2012 Chad

    The only way I could think of doing this would be to add some coffee extract to secondary and use some smoked malt alongside pale malt - that could be really tricky to pull off with the right balance and not come off too artificial (tasting like factory coffee.) I don't know if this would make more of a coffee rauchbier or a blonde stout - this is some serious offroading here. :slight_smile:

    Cool idea.
  4. kbuzz

    kbuzz Champion (849) Jan 22, 2011 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I know it's not the most desirable way to get flavor in a beer, but maybe some sort of extract could work? You wouldn't have to use much, so color wouldn't effect anything...vanilla/anise, things of that nature? Also maybe aging on white oak? This is like a damn mind puzzle for me right now...

    EDIT: Monkfish beat me with the extract idea...also, I've had a solid Smoked Berliner Weisse before, so smoke and pale can happen successfully
  5. kbuzz

    kbuzz Champion (849) Jan 22, 2011 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    maybe even just a short step in your mash at higher than desirable temps to extract some tannins could fake someone into getting an astringent bitterness/roastiness?? I don't know...just brainstorming...
    brewsader likes this.
  6. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Great idea with extract. Not sure if I want smoke though(just to be complicated I know). I like the anise and vanilla though. White oak awesome too. Keep 'em coming.

    Looking up white or bleached coffee now. It will be wild and sure to turn people into stout drinkers all over.
  7. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,104) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    The word barleywine came to mind before reading your entire post. I don't know how you're going to get. The roast flavor without the roast malts. Smoked malts are similar, but still not in the same ball park really. Let us know how it goes, I would like to hear your results!
  8. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Like a lot. Maybe even do a mash out at boiling to do that too. Or add some fresh grain and scald the crap outta that and release tannins that way.
  9. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Looking to have SRM's below 10. Just to up this challenge.
  10. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Maybe roast hazelnuts or pumpkin seeds and run water through them first. Lightly roast as both start pretty light in color but could impart a strong roast without the color.
  11. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Devotee (400) Nov 21, 2008 Texas
    Beer Trader

    Sounds like a new verse to Scarborough impossible request. These flavors come from melanoid compounds that are dark by their nature.
  12. MrOH

    MrOH Defender (690) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    Have you read the ingredients on white chocolate? It's just cocoa butter, vanilla, sugar, and emulsifier. I wouldn't add it to beer.
    yinzer likes this.
  13. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I think that you need to change your avatar to something w/a BrewDog theme.

    I do wish you luck.
  14. stakem

    stakem Poo-Bah (5,019) Feb 20, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    ok, i wasnt going to respond to this but since you are from Easton and a fellow Pa native i guess I will toss some ideas into the ring.

    you are basically chasing a dream/idea/joke that stone released as an April's fools joke a couple of years ago. I took it upon myself to try and formulate a recipe that could legitimately create roasty flavors without actually having a dark color and this is what i came up with. it might be a pipe dream, but if you take these ideas into consideration u might be able to come up with something

    use vanilla beans. that is a flavor that really exaggerates chocolate in a brew. white chocolate would help in delivering the thoughts of chocolate flavors to an extent as well as nibs or raw cacao. something like a very mild roasted chicory could help drive home roasted flavors without the srms that would be imparted by black patent or coffee itself. again, i dont know how readily available chicory is and if it can even be kilned to a degree less than your typical coffee bean is but it would be worth a try. all of those flavors make me think roast/dark chocolate without any color being imparted. i think the only other way to drive home these flavors would be to go an artificial route... licorice root maybe or licorice extract gives the thought of roast and "darkness"

    edit: if you use chicory, it might drive home the flavors you are looking for of roast/coffee however your brew might end up in the golden or copper color spectrum and not blonde or white
  15. inchrisin

    inchrisin Defender (654) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana

    Yeah, the roast comes from a char on the grain. I'd wonder if an extract would get you there, but I'm going to refer you to google for coffee/chocolate extract that may be clear in color if you're lucky.
  16. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Actually just read that about cacao nibs and have used them before in a porter I did. I am going to just mess around when bored roasting random things without bringing mallards effect into play and taste. Then add to a beer that will have a thick body. Will let you know what I come up with. Thanks for the tips and glad I am a native PA'er now.
  17. ehammond1

    ehammond1 Initiate (0) Jul 4, 2008

  18. Gueuzedude

    Gueuzedude Initiate (0) Aug 21, 2003 Arizona

    Just FYI, as most of you probably know, Stout, in the historical sense just meant strong beer. So there is in fact a historical basis for Stouts that are not dark in color.

    With that said, Coffee is likely your best option. Counterintuitively Coffee does not contribute much in the way of color (see this beer), and is a good way to get roast character into a beer. Coffee extract might be another way to go.
    danedelman likes this.
  19. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    De Dolle Stille Nacht has body. I'd say it's close to a blond. As a reference I'm pretty sure it's 80% plisner and 20% sugar. Maybe that could be a framework for your base???? Just thinking out loud here. Well maybe not a blond, but not a stout.

    Do I recollect something about pH and color?
  20. MrOH

    MrOH Defender (690) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland
  21. Jefeipa

    Jefeipa Initiate (0) May 6, 2009 Arizona

    I would say coffee beans(dark roast) and cocoa nibs are your best bet.
  22. kjyost

    kjyost Meyvn (1,175) May 4, 2008 Manitoba (Canada)

    How I wish the old forum were still around. Anyone else remember the white stout conversation? IIRC HB42 went off and ripped the OP a new one :slight_smile:
    clearbrew and jlpred55 like this.
  23. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I miss HB42.

    If I may though, I wish that I could be those posts. He never rubbed me the wrong way. Not that you aren't correct here, just say'n though.
  24. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    Saw this at Haven and it sounded like it was going to either be really good or really weird... wussed out and got a Pugachev's, and after reading your review I'm sad I didn't try it :slight_frown:
  25. ehammond1

    ehammond1 Initiate (0) Jul 4, 2008

    It was really something! Definitely was surprised to see it's color when the tender gave it to me when I ordered the newest Milk Stout on Nitro. It tasted so darn good, I definitely had no complaints. Cheers!
    (Also, can't really go wrong with Pugachev's though. :slight_smile:)
  26. patto1ro

    patto1ro Defender (627) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    I've a couple of Pale Stout recipes from the early 19th century.
  27. VikeMan

    VikeMan Meyvn (1,352) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    Does white chocolate taste anything like chocolate, roasty, or coffee to you? It doesn't to me.

    I've heard this said before, but is there even one historical reference to an english beer that was called a stout and was not dark? There were plenty of strong beers that were not called stout. You out there Ron?
  28. nuggetman

    nuggetman Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Massachusetts

    If you add roasted barley in small quantities you can get into the amber realm...then try the coffee or vanilla or extracts. Not sure how this will turn out though. Might be a hot mess, or maybe not! Just think balance and moderation when coming up with the test batch. Might even start small and build up your wort to lighten up the color in case it turns darker than you wish! Good luck and cheers!
    danedelman likes this.
  29. good_gracious

    good_gracious Initiate (0) Aug 19, 2012 Maryland

    Not sure about the roast flavor myself, so my only suggestion is to crank up the flaked oat additions. At least you'd have stout-like mouthfeel if nothing else.
  30. clearbrew

    clearbrew Initiate (0) Nov 3, 2009 Louisiana

    I feel like, if this where possible, the key would lie with wheat malt. I don't know if anyone has ever used a roasted wheat, or what it would taste like, but perhaps it would impart a roast flavor but not the dark color.
    You could try dark roasting wheat and blending that with a very light malt. Just a thought.
  31. PangaeaBeerFood

    PangaeaBeerFood Initiate (0) Nov 30, 2008 New York

    White Chocolate isn't roasty at all. If anything, it's full of fat and vanilla flavoring. Quite the polar opposite of what you're looking for... Plus it'll kill your head retention.

    Definitionally, "roasty" flavors are derived from roasting something. When you roast something, it darkens. That's just how cooking works.

    The only way to have a significant roastiness without adding color is by using extracts, preferably coffee, as it is processed much the same way as roasted malt. Extracts, though, will give you roasty aromatics, but not much in terms of stout-like bitterness. You might want to consider using a healthy dose of earthy English-style bittering hops, like Fuggles. If you have a pale beer in front of you, take a sip and simultaneously get the coffee/chocolate aromatics and a bit of earthy hop bite, it might be perceived as Stout-like. That's the best idea I could think of.

    In terms of the extracts, there are tons available in the spice and/or baking section of supermarkets. Or, you could soak whole dark roasted coffee beans in vodka for a few days, run it through a coffee filter, and use that. It should be plenty aromatic.
  32. Seanniek91

    Seanniek91 Defender (646) Jul 1, 2012 Rhode Island
    Beer Trader

    Starbucks make a "blond roast". Don't know if the color is different, but it might be worth looking into?
    danedelman likes this.
  33. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Moderator (1,095) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    There was a Beer Advocate homebrew article on this middle of last year. Try hitting up Drewbage on here and see if you can get the specifics from him (I don't have the article on me right now or I would post the recipe).
  34. Gueuzedude

    Gueuzedude Initiate (0) Aug 21, 2003 Arizona

    That is funny, the post right before you is from Ron, and he exactly addresses your question in the affirmative :slight_smile:
    kjyost and VonZipper like this.
  35. mattclough

    mattclough Initiate (0) Jan 31, 2013 Virginia

    Would it be feasible to make some kind of super coffee concentrate and add only a small amount to your beer so that the flavor is there but the effect on the color is minimal?
  36. good_gracious

    good_gracious Initiate (0) Aug 19, 2012 Maryland

    I like this a lot. Wonder what would happen if you did the same with a roasted malt?

    RBCORCORAN Aspirant (239) May 18, 2009 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    I don't drink cocoa so can't say what it taste like but I have seen both White cocoa powder and white mocha powder for sale.
  38. DrewBeechum

    DrewBeechum Meyvn (1,236) Mar 15, 2003 California
    Supporter Subscriber

    Here's the recipe from the Nov'ish issue of BA (#70)

    Reclamation White (Mocha?) Stout
    For 5.5 Gallons at 1.078, 57 / 30 IBUs, 7.3 SRM, 8.1% ABV
    Malt / Grain
    14 lbs Maris Otter
    1 lbs Flaked Oats
    1 lbs Flaked Barley
    0.5 lbs Crystal 40L
    Single Infusion Mash – 154F for 60 minutes
    1.0 oz / 0.5 oz Magnum 14%AA 60 minutes
    1.0 oz / 0 oz Crystal 3.5% 10 minutes
    Wyeast 1318 London Ale III
    Extras (for the Mocha Version – add in bulk before packaging)
    3 oz Cacao Extract (2oz of cacao nibs soaked in 6 oz vodka for 4 days, strain, freeze and remove fat cap)
    1 pint Cold Brewed Coffee Extract (1 cup ground coffee soaked overnight in 3 cups water)
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  39. michaeltrego

    michaeltrego Initiate (165) May 21, 2004 New Hampshire
    Beer Trader

    Apparently Night Shift Brewing is going to be pouring a 4.5% American "White Stout" called "Snow" at EBF.
    masterob8 likes this.
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