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Discussion in 'Beer News & Releases' started by wesbray, May 12, 2019.
The fact that they're keeping this behind a curtain of "confidentiality" really says it all.
Funny indeed, but that also demonstrates at least one of the inherent difficulties in assigning ownership of IP. I was once in a meeting discussing how to resolve a particular problem. One of us made a suggestion which a second person thought was a good idea that would solve the problem. However, the other two guys simply didn't connect or see the point. So the meeting ended with things unresolved.
At the next planning meeting it turned out that the night after the first meeting one of the two who hadn't connected on the idea had a "flash of insight" in the middle of the night and suddently knew how to solve the problem. Next morning he called the other person who had not clicked on the idea. Guess who wound up taking credit for coming up with the idea that solved the problem....
BTW do you remember where you read that second article about Manifest?
Do you have a sense of what "paid off" is supposed to mean? (I'm pretty sure I know why the second guy thinks the screenshot was inappropriate.)
This thread has made my head explode in a multi-dimensional way
I can't find the exact article again, it was one of those creepy Google phone alerts to tell you to read stuff based on what you've been doing already. But it was for a campaign for Infinite Session.
Here's some twitter stuff about it:
If you look in there somewhere on Twitter someone from Manifest replies back and attempts to defend their concept as original, but c'mon.
If this person is implying that Manifest was paid off...I doubt it. It appears that BrewDog knows or is familiar with the actual agency that came up with the original concept that Manifest bit, so...
Unidimensional head explosions resemble an expanding line and don't have the same panache.
The work Manifest is accused of ripping off doesn’t seem all that similar tbh. I mean, sure, they used the initials AF to mean alcohol free, but isn’t that a fairly standard usage anyway? The old campaign wasn’t using AF as a stand-in for “as fuck”, nor did they tie it to the word punk, which seems to me to be at the core of the Mainfest campaign and much more clever than the old campaign. At some level most creative professions depend on borrowing ideas from others, but I see the Manifest campaign as far different and more creative than the first one.
Well, this has been a pretty public case that has done a lot of damage to BrewDog's reputation so far. So if they really came to a mutually beneficial agreement with Manifest that made good on what they are being accused of, then it would only be in their very own best interest to make that public as well, wouldn't it. Keeping it all hush hush like this doesn't exactly paint them in the best light either.
I would also like to point out that even IF Manifest got the Punk AF idea from another campaign, which is in no way clear at this point, that STILL didn't make it okay for BrewDog to simpy steal that name from the concept they submitted to them. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Let me see if I follow your thinking here. A thief (Manifest) accuses BD of stealing something from them which they themselves stole from someone else and then deliberately passed off as being their own. (The evidence that Manifiest "stole" the idea from someone else is every bit as clear and credible as the evidence that BD "stole" the idea from Manifest.)
Now you are saying we should believe the thief who says BD stole something from them which they did not even own in the first place?
Furthermore we are supposed to believe that thief when they effectively claim that the only way BrewDog, who already have a "Punk IPA," could come up with the "Punk AF" is by theft of their already stolen idea?
@rozzom, my head just 'sploded in multi-dimension technicolor.
If you're referring to the Infinite Session beer, the AF certainly seems to be used as a stand-in for "as f**k." Their first 3 tweets as an operating company (Feb 2018) are:
Along with this shot from Instagram:
Also the "Not Boring AF" slogan:
It seems a core part of their branding from the start, not to mention the font similarities between what they're actually doing and what manifest proposed. Sure, they didn't actually use the word "punk" because doing so likely would have been trademark infringement, but the double-entendre meaning at the heart of the concept is the same.
Does this mean Manifest stole from them? Possibly, IS has gotten a fair amount of press in the UK and seems widely distributed. Does it undercut Manifest's claim that they were the only ones that could have possibly developed the concept for BD? I'd say so. It's not some kind of brilliantly unique idea and seemed like an odd choice to try mounting some kind of crusade on it.
Well, making it public might not be so good for Manifest. They made a pretty bold claim with scant evidence other than "BD said they were going in a different direction." Maybe someone in marketing can shed more light on this, but to me that seems ambiguous as to whether it means a different concept or different execution or different slogans or what. As shown by the Infinite Sessions tweets, this idea of AF having a double meaning is not all that original, especially when paired with the word "punk."
??? It's the same font prominently displayed in the center in the same way. I'd say the variance between BrewDog's campaign & the one Manifest "came up with" is far greater than Manifest vs. the actual original idea.
I just think it's fascinating that you have constantly given BrewDog every benefit of the doubt all along the way despite everything that has been brought forward against them and now that one thing comes up against Manifest, they are thieves, no ifs, ands or buts about it.
Yep, on the topic of this thread, the accusation by Manifest of BD being guilty of IP theft, I do indeed tend to give BD the benefit of the doubt. No question about it, so guilty as charged. In my view of the world, someone is generally not guilty until proven otherwise, regardless of their prior "conviction" record, especially when most or all of that record is demonstrably biased and/or distorted, demonstrably wrong, demonstrably irrelevant or demonstrably not understanding how the world works. In addition the burden of proof is on the accuser, especially when dealing with Twitter and other avenues of Social Media where, as I said earlier in this thread, misinformation and outrage spread further and faster than accurate information and corrections.
What, exactly, have they done other than failing to reimburse a job applicant's plane fare and posting (in quite poor taste) an "invoice" the applicant sent them 18 months ago? If there are any credible accusations against them, I'm all ears. I'm predisposed to disliking their shtick as much as anyone, but I'm not seeing a whole lot here.
I just went thru that whole link, and there is nothing additional in there. There was one other social media accusation of idea stealing with no proof provided.
There were 3 other agencies accusing BrewDog of shady business practices, plus the whole thing about them threatening to sue people using "Punk" or "Lone Wolf" in their business names, which is particularly ridiculous over the term "Punk", fucking hypocrites.
Haha BrewDog is punk in the same way the color green is orange
The AF phrase has been around the brewing industry for some time. Jackie O’s has been passing out these patches at beer fests and tap takeovers for years. FAF meaning Fresh as Fuck.
Coming from Brew Dog... yeah, whatever; but coming from Jackie O's... I suddenly think less of them.
I think the “credible accusation” here is basically that they’re jerks.
“AF” is a part of culture in general, and has been for some time. That isn’t relevant to the question of BrewDog stealing specific work.
"...Brewdog’s campaign launched last week during an ad break in the latest episode of HBO’s Game Of Thrones. Dubbed the “most honest ad ever”, the brewery put together a 30-second video featuring the word ADVERT is displayed in large font with a can of Punk IPA in front of it while thrash metal music plays.
On buses, the ad is worded ‘ADVERT ON A BUS’ above a picture of a can of the ale.
In response, Forest Road Brewing Co, backed in Hackney, is asking fans of its craft beer to take pictures of themselves holding bottles of its flagship Work IPA to cover the cans of Brewdog in the ads – and then share their images on social media with @forestroadbrew and the hashtag #beerthatworks both on Instagram and Twitter.
Beer fans who follow Forest Road’s orders Anyone can claim a free pint from Forest Road Brewing Co’s Tap Room in Hackney by showing their picture to the bar staff...."
Cheers to Forest Road for out-punking here!!
there was a time
your cigar was ironic
you been at it so long
Also from the article:
"Aaron Howard, one of the advertising creatives behind Forest Road’s campaign, said Brewdog’s ads are fun, but “not very punk – especially given that they said a couple of years back that they would never advertise.”
“Instead they’ve spent a large amount of money on high profile media placements – which could have been put to much better use. As a self-proclaimed challenger brand they could have used it to say something far more important."
Don't want to shoot the messenger here, but please don't help carry and spread this toilet water.
"Simulated" work is work. Work requires compensation. These are basically unpaid internships, which are illegal.
No problem. Intention was to describe what appeared to be happening. Nobody is forced to apply for a job that requires the procedure.
Nobody is forcing a 10 year old to apply for a job as a coal miner either, but we outlaw that labor arrangement as well for the betterment of society, in much the same way that we outlaw unpaid work (to a degree). "Nobody is forced to enter into X" isn't a particularly convincing defense of unpaid work.
There (should be) no free lunch in hiring. If you want to increase fit and retention via "talent assessment", pay for it.
Man, BrewDog is getting dragged today.
In other words the entire entertainment industry, from symphony orchestras to musical stage plays with dancer to club oners who emply stand up comics should be prepared to pay everyone who wants to audition for a job,
Absolutely. Good point, I agree that those industries need to change in this respect as well.
I mean if someone wants you to be in their play for a week before they decide if they actually want to pay you, yeah, that's bullshit.
No disagreement. My point was simply that unpaid Talent Assessment is quite common and widely accepted when hiring decisions are being made.
This reminds me of Miller Lite's intentional misspell, or Gene Simmons coining the "term" O.J....
Soooo, is BrewDog punk as fuck yet? Or is it gonna require more accountants, lawyers, bank accounts, and business plans?