Can I throw a new beer right on a yeast pad after transfering to a secondary?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by geneseohawk, Mar 4, 2013.

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  1. geneseohawk

    geneseohawk Initiate (0) Nov 4, 2008 Illinois

    I just brewed a green flash IPA using California yeast. I was going to brew a blonde ale this weekend. My question was- can I transfer the ipa to a secondary to dry hop and then throw on my new beer to the same yeast pad at the bottom? Or do I need to use a new container of yeast?
     
  2. geezerpk

    geezerpk Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2010 South Carolina

    That's what a lot of folks do. I ferment in buckets so I tend to siphon into a secondary then stir up the remaining trub and beer yeast and use 2 or 3 cups for the next batch. Actually, there's usually enough of the trub/yeast mix to save 2 or 3 more cups for an extra batch. (BTW — how are things in Geneseo? I grew up in Kewanee, a long time ago, haven't been back in 1/2 century or more, but thought it was a great place as a kid.)
     
  3. harpdog7

    harpdog7 Initiate (0) Sep 28, 2012 Illinois

    Yes, you can. Have a blow off tube ready in case it takes off fast.There are some guidelines out there advising what type of beer should come before another, and some people will tell you to only use part of the yeast cake.
    I have done several batches and poured cooled wort right onto a previous yeast cake, with very good results.
     
  4. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,528) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You can, but the whole yeast cake is probably too much yeast for the Blonde, and the yeast cake will also have quite a bit of hop oils and alpha acids in it which may come through in the final flavor/finish of a subtle style like a Blonde.
     
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  5. MacNCheese

    MacNCheese Initiate (0) Dec 10, 2011 California

    Yea, generally you brew a 'small' og beer to build a yeast cake to throw a monster beer onto.
     
  6. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,397) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    I do it frequently, but only for big, full flavored (hoppy, bitter) monsters. I'd be disinclined to pitch a Blonde on a cake from an IPA. You run the risk of adding flavors that may be out of place in a Blonde. Not unpleasant, necessarily, just maybe a touch different than what you were hoping for.

    Then again, it may be wonderful!
     
  7. mattsander

    mattsander Initiate (0) Feb 3, 2010 Canada (AB)

    You can do this, but in almost every case you will be overpitching. Use a pitching rate calculator to determine how much of that yeast cake / slurry is ideal: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
     
  8. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    That's a good point. The fact that you have a whopping big yeast cake doesn't mean you have to use the whole thing.
     
  9. brewsader

    brewsader Initiate (0) Dec 7, 2012 New York

  10. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,397) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Regarding over pitching, I don't worry about that when doing a big DIPA or a Barleywine. I use it all! MrMalty says it's too much, but it works fine. (Many will argue the point, but I take MrMalty's recommendations with a grain of salt). A smaller beer, on the other hand, might actually show symptoms of over pitching. I use the technique strictly for big beers, so I can't comment on that.
     
  11. harsley

    harsley Maven (1,261) Jun 16, 2005 Massachusetts

    Yup.

    Plus, I've put a Cream Ale on an IPA yeast and no noticeable hop presence came through, though I was expecting some. I also put an IPA on a Brown Ale cake and there was no noticeable color or other attribute from that either. In my experience, the previous beer has very little effect on the current one.
     
  12. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,397) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    That's pretty much what I would expect, though I would still be disinclined to use the cake from an intensely flavorful or colorful beer for a lighter, more nuanced beer. No sense tempting fate.
     
  13. GuzzLah

    GuzzLah Initiate (0) Mar 2, 2013 Illinois

    You can do it. It will make beer, but it's a massive over pitch. If you do it and and are happy with the result, then fine.

    Alternatively, harvest some of the yeast in an amount according to the MrMalty calculator. Make a starter and pitch the starter when it hits high krausen about 12-18 hours later.
     
  14. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    What's the point in making a starter with the partial yeast cake?
     
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  15. joshrosborne

    joshrosborne Initiate (0) Jun 14, 2010 Michigan

    I'll be racking a 1.08'ish tripel onto a 3522 cake from a Belgian pale this weekend. I'll try to remember to report back, but I'm sure it will be fine.
     
  16. rocdoc1

    rocdoc1 Savant (1,191) Jan 13, 2006 New Mexico

    I've always been amazed that I somehow managed to make good beer before mrmalty.com showed up to tell me I wasn't doing anything right.
     
  17. GuzzLah

    GuzzLah Initiate (0) Mar 2, 2013 Illinois

    After primary fermentation the yeast is stressed out and some of it is dead. Making a starter improves the overall yeast health and enables you to pitch the yeast at high krausen which will lead to a faster starting fermentation and a more complete fermentation.
     
  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I agree some of the yeast is dead. I believe Mr. Malty takes that into account. Or even if not, with a partial cake, you can control how much of it you use, to use whatever estimated live cell count you want, without a starter.

    How does a starter improve overall yeast health (as opposed to cell count) in any way that adding the same cells to beer wort would not? Also, I've never seen any evidence that pitching at high krausen results in a more complete fermentation. Why do you believe this? (Would love to read any studies if they exist.)

    I agree that you'll get a faster starting fermentation pitching at high krausen, but I don't think that will necessarily translate to better beer. Personally, I crash and decant all of my starters, rather than adding abused starter beer (non temp controlled, possibly oxidized, not part of my carefully crafted recipe) to my real beer.
     
  19. GuzzLah

    GuzzLah Initiate (0) Mar 2, 2013 Illinois

    I emailed White Labs and followed their recommendations which I stated previously.

    I've made beer with a slurry without a starter and the same beer a month later with a slurry starter using the same fermentation temperature and old yeast. The beer that didn't use the starter took longer to start (24hours), produced some mild bandaid off flavor and finished at 1.010. The beer that used the same slurry with a starter took off in 8 hours and finished at 1.004 with no off flavor.

    This is all the information I'm providing you. Take it or leave it.
     
  20. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California
    Deactivated

    Not exactly a controlled experiment here. Many things could be responsible for the off flavor including water (Chlorophenols) or bad sanitation.

    Also, without knowing cell counts, you could have underpitched the first beer lacking the starter, then with the starter, over pitched or pitched the right amount the second using the starter. Making the same beer a month apart with a yeast cake that sat in the fridge for a month isn't exactly a well controlled experiment to assess the affects of a yeast starter.

    According to Chris White (http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/Yeast_Life_Cycle.pdf), appropriate lag time for fermentation is 3-15 hours, which suggests that you may have underpitched your beer solely utilizing the cake.
     
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