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Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by dwagner003, Aug 21, 2013.
Agreed. Those Q-Tip people can go fuck themselves. I'm stickin that shit way down my ear canal.
prevents HIV, maybe.
Well I guess that's in my search history now.
The seller being 'wrong' is simply a difference in philosophy. You don't feel it is wrong, but I do. And that's OK. As I said before, from strictly an economic/capitalism standpoint...I get it. But this isn't Beerprofit.com, it's Beeradvocate.com...and I feel that behavior goes against everything I love about this industry. I also feel that is a slippery slope and will ultimately hurt everybody.
Just because you CAN do those things for profit doesn't mean you should. Exactly my point. Doing those things for a profit makes you a douche. Respect beer.
What about other products? Or is your philosophy exclusive to beer.
It takes some serious pelo to say something like that.
What I think is wrong about it is that he hurt somebody. Not the profits, that's too pragmatic a discussion.
I use the montra, "don't actually hurt anybody"
If you've met Jean, you'd know that he is sincerely hurt by the undermining of his practice and appreciation for beer and soccer/football. I am certain many on this site who've spent even an iota of time with Mr. Van Roy knows that he isn't like pussypants Shaun Hill, out to stop people from reselling their beer. That wasn't his point. It was that he invited what he thought were like minded people to engage in a unified appreciation of beer and sports; and they used his invitation not to be a part of the process, but to exploit the process.
I think that's kinda what you're getting at, but it sounds more like you just hate grey markets.
Yes, a brewer has a very important place in this discussion. If he's disappointed, he may decide never to offer that deal again, which would be a loss for quite a number of people for the price of leaving one person a bit richer. And the reason he was disappointed is because he thought he was selling to people who like what he puts in the bottles, not the superficiality of the larger bottle. And those prices at 15 and 35 euro are not cheap for beer in that part of the world.
As for people who equate black market, speculation and price gouging with capitalism, I have nothing but contempt for them. They should take another look at Russian black market, where branded bottles are refilled with toxic moonshine or sterno, and at China with their general practice of making profit at any cost (just recall the pet food and milk scandals). These are prime examples of unbridled capitalism and deregulated "free" market.
For the most part beer, and that is because of the point you mentioned in another post...it's personal. Beer is a very personal thing in the craft world, and brewers put a lot of work and soul into it. It just really sucks to see someone exploit that for a personal gain.
Ultimately we're on the same page.
I don't understand what you mean.
I am a firm believer in capitalism. This doesn't mean I am happy about this slap in the face to Mr. Van Roy, nor that fine beers generally are becoming harder for me to afford to buy.
Personally I hope that the bottle breaks on a 250 square yard white wool carpet in the seller's house, and that the water, electricity, and phone service are not working when it does.
Not because I don't think he/she has a right to sell the bottle for whatever profit he can squeeze. But because I have a right to wish bad shit on folks I think are greedy, uncaring assholes.
That pretty much sums up my feelings as well, even if my posts didn't come across that way. I understand the seller is a perfect example of a capitalist, but the seller is also the perfect example of a douche.
Thought same thing. Pelo is hair. I'm hair. Pelo not balls.......
Sometimes, the less you say, the better it comes across.
Why you always say shit the way we wanna say shit?
No one is "offering" the seller $1000 for their beer. The person who bought this beer is selling this beer for $1000. In their mind, they are probably thinking that "hey, if someone wants to pay me $1000, than I am willing to let it go. Otherwise, I have a sweet jeroboam of Cantillon." You think there is nothing wrong with this mentality....everything is for sale right?
What I read into Jean's post on Facebook is a deep disappointment in the consumer, for thinking that this beer is worth JUST $1000....when this bottle is designed to bring friends together, to celebrate friendship, love, a newborn, whatever....someone is willing to let that go for a measly grand. Again, it is people not "getting" beer that is so upsetting.
People keep saying saying, capitalism, supply and demand, comparing to baseball cards' value, etc. What you're forgetting is that if a lay person sells beer, they are committing a crime. Breweries deal with highly extensive regulations and spend thousands of dollars to procure a license just to be able to sell their beer. Now some Joe off the street comes into their brewery, buys the beer, and suddenly gets to illegally profit of that? Fuck that guy. He didn't put the time or effort into producing the beer, or to procure a license. That guy is a fucking criminal and a douche bag.
I don't see a big problem with it. I see it as some one buying a beautiful piece of art, then selling it for more.
So what if the artist gave that piece directly to you? For like a birthday or something? Would you turn around and sell it then?
That would be different; but as I understand he purchased a season ticket, which means he did pay for it.
My bad , valid argument agreed.
It is possible that Cantillon will raise prices in the future. Since the issue lies almost exclusively in these cases with special releases, Cantillon at the moment is exploring alternative tactics there, indeed they might raise the prices fro those as you say.
Steps that Cantillon has taken so far:
*Not adding any new special beers other than new Zwanze variations to their portfolio which is a bit sad, they have broken this rule once, the special was for USA only
*Most of the Scandinavian specials are out of their reach, 50N-4E has become seasonal Cantillon beer to increase supply.
*Specials are no longer indicated at the brewery ~ this doesn’t particularly work since American beer geek tourists seem to be more informed than interested Belgians.
*I got the impression that service was a bit different when you spoke a local language as opposed to English. I got 6 bottles of 50N-4E during the release when I asked in my most regional Flemish. This is a bit debatable tactic;
I do get the breweries at times. It is like when “In de Verzekering tegen de Grote Dorst” got a handful of Allagash Coolship bottles. 2 American beer tourists bought all of them and were bragging about it to people including me, stuff like that just seemes messed-up to me.
I do realize that people like that are a big exception when it comes to USA beer geeks but they are out there, they are oddly dedicated and spare no money and they give everyone a bad name.
At some level. Yes. And anytime you agree to buy something, you are "offering" something.
Feel like you didn't finish thread before posting.
That's because you don't have anything in your cellar worth $1000. That doesn't mean no beer is worth that much.
True. And never said no beer is not worth that much.
It's rare these days that you encounter an artisan: a person who values their craft as much as they reject the crass commercialism that would typically be applied on top of it in order to just make more money.
It's someone who strives to make their crafts and traditions survive in an environment that is generally hostile to their continued survival. An artisan is proud of their creations and wants anyone in the general public to be able to access them, should they so wish.
But the moment their work becomes the domain of collector scum and gets routinely marked with black market price tags that would make it accessible to only those with plenty of money, the artisan knows that it actually damages their mission. Ironically each ridiculously expensive, vastly overpriced sale of their product instead devalues their art.
The conversation becomes centered on rarity, collectibility and other bullshit commercial attributes. But the artisan just wants to create some wonderful products that bring true value to the people experiencing them, not adding more weight to their wallets. Jean Van Roy is one of those artisans, and I completely understand and support his efforts.
And in case my melodramatic explanation above doesn't make it clear: the person who spends $1,000 on a Jeroboam of Gillois is a goddamn moron. For one thing, a fraction of that amount would buy you as much of the same beer in 750ml bottles, and it would taste exactly the same. Only some unprecedented dumbassery would make someone drop a grand on that.
Maybe my palate will change in the future, but for now, I'm glad I'm not obsessed with saisons/sours/lambics. They're good, but not that interesting to me. More beer for the rest of you, as some might say!
While I can understand and agree with the majority of your point about Belgian consumers and pricing, Jean has told me on several occasion that the majority of his customers, at the brewery and professional, are not Belgian. I would have assumed there were many people in Brussels who bought beer at the brewery, he said that it's simply not the case. Without the interest of foreigners, the brewery would have gone out of business years ago.
What bothers Jean is that people are losing sight of what the beer community is all about. This guy who's selling this bottle is a prime example.
I agree on this point, but I think it's more community in general and not specifically for beer. See my later post.
Most important question: where can we bid on this item?
So, all these were in person right? And you didn't trade them like a commodity, right?
From mark14580's page:
Completed trades with:
i wouldn't say that the seller is "wrong" but they are clearly looking to do nothing more than profit off a large-format bottle that was a very limited release. the same person would probably do the same for any other novelty-sized/limited release beer that came their way. it seems that Jean is upset that the engaging spirit in which he decided to offer these larger bottles to the fans of his local team has been tossed out the window for the sake of profit by someone with no actual interest in the team (and most likely the beer as well, since it is nothing more than a relatively common/lower tier Cantillon brew in a "rare" format.)
that said, the attempted resale of the bottle whose contents would cost less than $100 or 1/10 the "asking price" at most speaks volumes about the person selling it and the spirit in which they acquired it (clearly profit-driven.)
I was aware that a reasonable amount of the customers at the brewery itself were foreign. I didn’t know it involved the majority. I do know that export wise, Americans do get the biggest part of what they make, not sure of the exact figure.
Jean attributes the survival to American interests whilst Armand attributes it to certain individuals in the Belgian beer scene. Who insisted on the preservation of lambic and continuing of the lambic tradition when Belgian interest had become extinct and American focus was still non-existent. Obviously Cantillon & Horals will never agree and it is quite possible that the situation was very different for the 2 of them. I have heard both parties tell utter lies just to discredit the other one in the past.
Well whilst the case of lambic is the most extreme one basically every brewery in Belgium would go bankrupt without export. Belgium exports 60 % of their beer, most breweries depend heavily on export. Foreigners have kept Belgian beer alive for a long time, Americans and French exports being important at the moment. Most likely Asian exports in the future.
Whilst in this day and age with the global economy etc. that is nothing weird, this is actually not a new given. This has been the case for centuries.
Geuze was invented for export to begin with.
Noooooooo. Asia (China) took Champagne, don't let them take Lambic!!!!
do you see the holes in your argument? how can one cleanly divide doing something what is for love and what is for personal gain in a profitable business? at what profit margin does price morally offend you?
while you warn about a slippery slope, you make a nebulous argument based on your own subjective feelings. if we all rendered judgment in the same way as you, there would indeed be a slippery slope, but it would slip every which way.
i understand that seems to offend you quite a bit. however, your power to influence others here is much lower than your power to influence your own feelings. i'd suggest you take up another cause or find another way to act on this if you truly wish to realize any effect here.
Based on your amount of posts in this thread, you must be an avid seller of beer. Good luck with that.
20 percent of what they brew, goes to the US.
Who is to say it won't.