Chicago Vax Mandate Coming To Indoor Businesses

Discussion in 'Great Lakes' started by whatruDOINdragic, Dec 21, 2021.

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  1. whatruDOINdragic

    whatruDOINdragic Initiate (0) Aug 22, 2013 Illinois

    I suspect I'm in the minority here, but fuck it: I strongly object to such a mandate and will not patronize any business that enforces it. My wife and I are both vaccinated, if that bears on the validity of my opinion on this topic. And in the vain hope I can avoid this being cast in a partisan political light: I am an independent who disdains both parties, although not necessarily equally at all times on all issues.

    Even if one discounted the liberty argument in favor of stopping the spread--not something with which I agree, but at least rational--that position may have supported such a mandate before Omicron. But now, with Omicron being so highly contagious and sufficiently vaccine-evasive, this mandate certainly isn't going to accomplish stopping the spread, and likely won't even meaningfully slow it either. This is flat procrustean tyranny, and for the sake of what?

    I will not cooperate with this. I hope businesses also won't of their own accord but, failing that, I hope enough of us don't patronize them that they're forced not to cooperate. Regarding my beer consumption specifically, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world for my wallet and health if I reduced or stopped it altogether.
  2. Number1Framer

    Number1Framer Pundit (884) Mar 13, 2016 Wisconsin

  3. Sabtos

    Sabtos Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,984) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    New Orleans has had indoor vax mandates this whole time.

    I've traveled quite a bit around this country since March 2020 and it's the first city I've gotten any use out of these oversized bullshit vax cards, and I was quite excited about it.

    Don't worry, the shitty places will remain shitty and won't give a damn about any of this.
    Shanex, Jsimansk, stmoorea and 2 others like this.
  4. mando31

    mando31 Pundit (996) Oct 15, 2009 Illinois

    You can add your vax card to your iPhone wallet. It's pretty neat. I can't wait to use it!
  5. Chuckdiesel24

    Chuckdiesel24 Pooh-Bah (2,862) Jul 6, 2016 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I'll preface this by saying I mostly agree there shouldn't be a mandate.

    But it looks like there is going to be one. To boycott businesses that follow an ordinance of their locale is saying "I'll only spend my money if you are willing to risk losing your license". That's punishing places that aren't the "perpetrator" of this mandate. I bet a lot of them hate they have to do it - but people like you will probably show up and berate their employees for just following the rules. Enjoy that Ivory Tower!

    Are you still going to patronize a place like Half Acre that has been doing this of their own accord for quite some time now? Or are they all good and it's just the ones that are so "spineless" they only did it when the Mayor made it a requirement?...
  6. AstraXtreme

    AstraXtreme Initiate (0) Mar 21, 2014 Wisconsin

    This topic is bound to trigger people, so get your popcorn ready.
    The vax doesn't fully prevent you from getting the virus and especially doesn't prevent you from spreading it, so this mandate is basically a carrot to convince more people to get it.

    BUT you can also assume that since this mandate will eliminate ~half the people that visit a business, that less people equals less spread. That'll certainly be effective, but at the expensive of hurting those businesses. Pick your poison I guess.
    ChicagoJ, Purp1eOne and Chuckdiesel24 like this.
  7. DeadWax

    DeadWax Zealot (647) Dec 29, 2016 Illinois

    This is inaccurate to the extent that vaccination does prevent a significant amount of infection among those exposed and if a person does not become infected they cannot spread the virus. And even among those infected, the risk of severe illness is much lower so requiring people helps decrease the load on local health care systems.

    Please do not feed into misinformation about the continuing effectiveness of vaccines.

    I am pro mandate as if we could get to 80% vaccination across this country, there would be no need for mask or other restrictions as the incidence of the disease would be so low.
  8. Raj

    Raj Savant (1,146) Jun 25, 2014 Illinois

    Im all for a vaccine mandate ; I hope that the definition of fully vaccinated includes boosters for those who were vaccinated more than 6 months ago. We as a society should seen the delta and omicron surges coming months ago and implemented these sorts of measures over the summer when case counts were low. The problem now of that this come when cases are exploding and the holidays have passed , and much of the damage will already be done.
  9. FBarber

    FBarber Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,989) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Lets keep this civil and on topic.
    Beer_Economicus, steveh, Todd and 6 others like this.
  10. stairway2heavn

    stairway2heavn Zealot (700) Aug 17, 2017 New Jersey

    Chicago isn't the first or last. We live in a society blah blah. Employees may be vulnerable or live with vulnerable people at home (kids, transplant patients, the elderly). Man, if people think this is tyranny, to have people eating and drinking in close quarters reduce the likelihood of spread and hospitalizations, that's impressive.
    People do know there are books not by Ayn Rand right? Don't tell them about the Satoshi then. Bunch of libertarians didn't want to let you have a darn microwave in your cruise ship, international waters paradise. But can't get some Benthic/Rev/ BCBS variant on tap without a shot?
    "We're like two steps from some kind of authoritarian regime!" (Explains we are in more of a failson kleptocracy.) "Klepto what?"
  11. KCUnited

    KCUnited Savant (1,006) Nov 11, 2014 Arizona

    This is more of an inquiry than a statement to better help me understand the risk.

    It felt with Delta, being vaxxed lowered your chances of getting it thus lowering the number of people able to spread it. With Omicron, that doesn't appear to be the case, right? There's more breakthrough cases with the new variant.

    If that's the case, then while vaxxed status may reduce risk of serious symptoms and complications, would a proof of vax mandate really be that effective in reducing the spread?

    FTR I'm pro vax and businesses choosing their own policy.

    I'm also happy to have learned about adding your card to your iPhone wallet which I wasn't aware of.
    Shanex and Harrison8 like this.
  12. FBarber

    FBarber Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,989) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Super Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    There are more breakthrough cases, but vaccines still provide some protection from contracting it - it just is not as robust as it was with delta and prior variants. Vaccines also help reduce the risk of serious cases, so it reduces the risk of cases that impact the health systems.
  13. Jplachy

    Jplachy Pooh-Bah (1,602) Feb 12, 2012 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

  14. whatruDOINdragic

    whatruDOINdragic Initiate (0) Aug 22, 2013 Illinois

    Responses in-line in bold and underlined, above.
  15. Shanex

    Shanex Grand Pooh-Bah (4,244) Dec 10, 2015 France
    Regional Mod Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Basically we have a new strain that originated in South Africa, is far more transmissible than the Delta variant which was also more transmissible than the previous one and this is what is frustrating.

    Frustrating because the majority of the population is vaccinated by now (Not sure about the datas in Illinois/Chicago however) and those that got jabbed + the booster now are just annoyed and jaded after nearly two years of pandemic as in: we abide by the « rules » and what seemed best for us and other people and yet : more mandates.

    I understand all too well those who are tired of mandate, restrictions etc, and trust me said restrictions are far worse in Europe.

    I just truthfully hope Omicron is the last of these variant, and Covid just vanish for good someday whether from herd immunity or at worse become the 21st century « flu » which would be a major bummer as well.
    Beer_Economicus, Jaycase and Sabtos like this.
  16. Sabtos

    Sabtos Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,984) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    It will never vanish, it will just turn into the common cold the original folks in power in some countries wanted to pretend it was to begin with.
    ChangSing, Shanex and FBarber like this.
  17. Jsimansk

    Jsimansk Zealot (685) Jul 10, 2012 Illinois

    I’m not that old but for the life of me I still haven’t figured out how to do this with the Illinois records.
  18. mando31

    mando31 Pundit (996) Oct 15, 2009 Illinois

  19. P739397

    P739397 Zealot (502) Feb 13, 2017 Illinois

    How exactly are you not cooperating? Are you going to unvaccinate yourself? Not going isn't not cooperating, it's just avoiding congregate settings.

    Vaccines reduce spread, improve immune responses, and help public health. Getting an mRNA booster helps against Omicron, so I hope we are going to see more places require that for entry. We have tons of health and safety requirements that people comply with, this isn't different.

    This isn't tyrrany and calling it that is ridiculous hyperbole. In the midst of a public health crisis, an ongoing pandemic/epidemic, vaccines and masks seem like the least we as a society can do to improve our outcomes and expect of each other.
  20. mando31

    mando31 Pundit (996) Oct 15, 2009 Illinois

    I forgot to mention, when registering do it on a desktop because you will have to scan the QR code they give you to get the card on the phone.
    Jsimansk and KCUnited like this.
  21. ktr5010

    ktr5010 Savant (1,016) Dec 12, 2014 Illinois

    TIL a new word. Are all these businesses procrustean for making me wear pants and a shirt inside too? What about going to the bathroom in the toilet and not on the wall?

    The mandate is good. It makes me feel more comfortable going to places that require proof of vaccination. Are you just not going to go to any place in Chicago? If they require every business to do it (and let's assume breweries/grocery stores/liquor stores for the sake of keeping this on topic) are you just not going to buy beer? If places don't ask for vaccination proof, they they would be in violation of this hypothetical mandate. You do you
    mbockstruck30, stmoorea and Sabtos like this.
  22. whatruDOINdragic

    whatruDOINdragic Initiate (0) Aug 22, 2013 Illinois

    Responses in-line, underlined above.
  23. P739397

    P739397 Zealot (502) Feb 13, 2017 Illinois

    You have decided that the vaccines and boosters don't sufficiently lower spread and severity of illness. From what I've seen from reports so far, I would disagree. I guess we're divided there.

    To me, not mandating this has been cruel and negligent. So, again, clearly, we see this very differently. You don't have to get a vaccine or booster, just like you don't have to wear pants, stop smoking cigarettes, or you don't have to wear a seatbelt. But if you want to go to the store, put on pants. If you want to dine at a restaurant, put out the cigarette. If you want to be in a car, wear a seatbelt.
  24. Sabtos

    Sabtos Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,984) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Did you not go to public school?

    Shudder to think what you would do if you worked in the medical field or enlisted in the military.

    Vaccine mandates have been around since the days of George Washington. Literally.
    #24 Sabtos, Dec 21, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2021
  25. Raj

    Raj Savant (1,146) Jun 25, 2014 Illinois

    yes omicron is more infectious than Delta. But vaccinations reduce risk of serious infection and hospitalization, and boosters of the mRNA vaccine seem to decrease the risk of omicron infections.
    But Breakthrough infections are not just about the efficacy of a particular vaccine. The more virus circulates in the community , and the more people engage is “risky” activity (ie normal life) the more breakthrough cases we are going to see.
    Getting behind vaccine mandate may help us avoid the worse of this surge, and keep businesses and schools open, and hospitals functional.
    KCUnited, Sabtos and DeadWax like this.
  26. Chuckdiesel24

    Chuckdiesel24 Pooh-Bah (2,862) Jul 6, 2016 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    If you said you weren't comfortable showing your medical info to a random restaurant and will just sit this out for now, that would be very understandable to me and wouldn't have written anything in this thread.

    But your initial post
    a) advocates for businesses to break local mandates
    b) practically calls for a boycott if they don't do the above

    I just don't think saying "I'll only spend my money there if they break the mandate and I hope other people do as well" is a very fair way to approach these businesses.

  27. REVZEB

    REVZEB Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,693) Mar 28, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Wow most of you need to have a beer and chill out. You were deluding yourself if you didn't think this was inevitable in Chicago
  28. KCUnited

    KCUnited Savant (1,006) Nov 11, 2014 Arizona

    No disagreement. I acknowledged the less severe impact Omicron can have on the vaccinated thus implying a possible reduced impact on hospital capacity and focused solely on spread reduction.

    I guess without a negative test before going out, I'm just picturing a bunch of vaccinated people spreading it to each other, then spreading out in the wild over the holidays and wonder about the effectiveness of the proof of vax mandate as a result.

    I'm up for whatever, although would like to give businesses the option to choose their own path (its like we don't trust them to do the "right" thing but we do Chicago leaders) and sincerely hope Omicron moves like a brush fire then stabilizes as a dominant, less severe variant.
    Shanex likes this.
  29. DeadWax

    DeadWax Zealot (647) Dec 29, 2016 Illinois

    This idea that somehow the vaccine isn’t necessary or isn’t working because it doesn’t 100% stop all infections seems really silly if you look at it in other contexts:

    -Do you think dentistry is a waste of time because people still get cavities or lose teeth?

    -Do you think that seatbelts are a waste of time because some people live through a car accident without one?

    -Do you believe that birth control “doesn’t work” because some people still get pregnant despite using it?

    -Perhaps you think inspections on food are a waste of time because there is a statistically low amount of substandard product making it through anyways?

    And lastly, @whatruDOINdragic , you lost the ability to claim you aren’t participating in ridiculous hyperbole when you uttered “infantilized peon” in a non-satirical fashion.

    We won’t be missing your sort of perspective in person indoors at Rev/Half Acre/Maplewood, et. al. this winter due to your boycott of businesses who are not willing to flaunt the public health code because of the feelings of people like you. Luckily this sort of misguided boycott won’t hurt their bottom line when there are 2-3 people who feel more comfortable with the mandate in place for for every one of you complaining about “liberty” to get wings and a beer at a bar.
    dbelford, emerge077, stmoorea and 3 others like this.
  30. KCUnited

    KCUnited Savant (1,006) Nov 11, 2014 Arizona

    Hopefully its still okay to acknowledge the effectiveness and importance of the vaccine and booster while still conducting our own due diligence which requires asking relevant questions regarding any mandates.

    Of course the vaccine works, but to the extent of a proof of vaccine mandate should be be vetted, especially within the hyper local beer community.

    No good deed goes unpunished, path to hell is paved with good intentions, etc.
  31. Sabtos

    Sabtos Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,984) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Ooo, ooo, ooo, I got another one:

    Wealth is like hair in the nose: it hurts to be separated whether from a little or from a lot.
  32. KCUnited

    KCUnited Savant (1,006) Nov 11, 2014 Arizona

    Disappointed in my wealth
    flat_lander likes this.
  33. HouseofWortship

    HouseofWortship Pooh-Bah (2,557) May 3, 2016 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I for one can’t think of anything more offensive than being carded to get into a bar. Next they’ll want to see ID to make sure you are 21+.
  34. KCUnited

    KCUnited Savant (1,006) Nov 11, 2014 Arizona

    The prudent thing to do would be to provide a negative test in addition to vax status.

    Who's with me?
    FBarber, tiffman and Lorddevn like this.
  35. stairway2heavn

    stairway2heavn Zealot (700) Aug 17, 2017 New Jersey

    Sure, but it seems like the only issues being brought up are:
    1) If we allow a local government to do this then next they will.....? This is a bad bit of logic as discussed. There is plenty of middle ground. Having indoor vaccine mandates is a long way from whatever libertarian horrors being imagined.

    2) Contrary to this, the argument we shouldn't because it's not worth it anyway. This clearly contradicts the first point, because it implicitly states there are worthy reasons for government to place certain obligations on citizens. On top of that, it's hard to make much of people "asking questions." People upset over this, both in my experience as a physician and on this board don't go reading infectious disease or public health studies. If they did, they wouldn't have people explaining the multifaceted purpose of vaccination.
    Your freedom ends at my nose is a great litmus test. Many libertarians seem to have horse blinders on what that means. We obligate seat belt use in part to save lives, but also because we as a society can save money on health care costs by reducing injury and death. Any mandates on vaccination are intended not to simply help the vaccinated but to save money, hospital space, and the lives of others directly and indirectly (i.e., those that might not have access to a hospital bed or procedure due to an overabundance of COVID patients and the knock on effects of that).
    flurker, ktr5010, DeadWax and 3 others like this.
  36. HouseofWortship

    HouseofWortship Pooh-Bah (2,557) May 3, 2016 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    We are almost 2 years into this- how have we not come up with a suitable bubble suit for everyday use?
    bound4er and Lorddevn like this.
  37. stairway2heavn

    stairway2heavn Zealot (700) Aug 17, 2017 New Jersey

    We should have the infrastructure to test every citizen on a rotational basis every few weeks at a minimum. That would help catch a lot of cases! Public health experts actually have advocated this. So, and I know you're sarcastic, but the public health community wouldn't laugh that idea off entirely.
    FBarber and Lorddevn like this.
  38. KCUnited

    KCUnited Savant (1,006) Nov 11, 2014 Arizona

    Of course, just highlighting that individual thresholds are indeed individual.
  39. GuyFawkes

    GuyFawkes Grand Pooh-Bah (4,682) Apr 7, 2011 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    @FBarber I think it's just about time to wrap this up!

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  40. JohnnyHopps

    JohnnyHopps Pooh-Bah (2,964) Jun 15, 2010 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah Trader

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