Do Ciders Belong in the Beer World?

Discussion in 'Other Beverages' started by BrewVenture2, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,859) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    As usual, a helpful clarification. So all FMB must have hops.

    The use of "malternatives" was deliberately put in quotes for a reason, that reason being the term is/has been widely used in confusing ways even though it seems not to be part of the official categorization scheme used by the TTB.
  2. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,859) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Yes, he often puts the corrections out there fairly quickly and I confess I had not remembered his posts in that earlier thread so did not do any digging there. :slight_smile:

    Effectively it sounds to me like we all need to abandon the use of "malternatives" whether in quotes or not.

    As this is all shaping up with some additional clarification, and since it is up to the website operators to make their own judgments in ambiguous cases, there would appear to be no reason for anyone to claim NYFRB should not be listed on a site like this.

    However, while people are free to choose what they drink and why, we want to be a bit careful about extending the use of the term beer as a free choice beverage descriptor to all individuals as it fairly soon leads us down the Humpty Dumpty pathway:

    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." ”
    Lewis Carroll in Through the Looking-Glass

  3. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Aspirant (289) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    I would point out that language is defined by its speakers. The dictionary strives to record the meanings of words as they are used by the general population, not the other way around. The population is not required to use words as they are defined in the dictionary.

    Not that I'd personally use the term "beer" for anything but, well... beer. Maybe someday the general understanding of the word "beer" will change, and the minority here at BA will be forgotten.
  4. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,859) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    No disagreement except possibly to emphasize even more strongly your use of the plural: "speakers."

    As you point out what appears in the dictionary is basically a history lesson that no single indivdual can freely violate and expect to be clearly understood.
  5. marquis

    marquis Crusader (769) Nov 20, 2005 United Kingdom (England)

    Some brewing words are of course industry jargon and are often misused by the general public.
    This often leads to confusion when taken out of conext. So we see stouts regarded as ales and brewers colouring milds with roast grains rather than dark sugars.
    And other words are legally defined.
  6. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,438) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    One thing to add, that may help the discussion with @drtth.

    A brewery owner was talking about malternatives, he said they had to use the TTB minimum amount. If they want low bitterness, they recycle kettle hops that have already been used for making a batch of beer. The Alpha Acids have been mostly spent, the aromatics are gone. Not much is added from the hops, as not much is left, but they used the legal specified amount.

    The legal amount of 1.2 ounces of hops per barrel looks absurdly low to this homebrewer. That would be 0.194 ounces for the "standard" 5 gallon batch of beer. There are many IPA Homebrew recipes that use 8 Oz. of hops in the hot side, then about that amount on the cold side as dry hops. Heck, some NEIPAs are said to use 7 lbs per barrel of dry hops!
    DonicBoom, jesskidden and drtth like this.
  7. jesskidden

    jesskidden Poo-Bah (1,772) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey

    And, besides that token amount of hops required, the other reason brewers prefer to follow the TTB definition of "malt beverage" (from the FAA Act) is to avoid having to have their products follow the stricter labeling and other requirements of the FDA ("devil you know" and all that).

    In cases where a brewery product ... fails to meet the definition of a “malt beverage” under the FAA Act
    ("...a fermented beverage made from both malted barley and hops, or their parts, or their products.)... the product will be subject to ingredient and other labeling requirements administered by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

    from Classification of Brewed Products as “Beer” Under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and as “Malt Beverages” Under the Federal Alcohol Administration Act
    Squire, drtth and hopfenunmaltz like this.
  8. rfgetz

    rfgetz Poo-Bah (2,377) Nov 14, 2008 New Jersey

    Last time i brought up cider, in passing in a comment in the homebrew forum about what I had on tap, my post was removed.
  9. rgordon

    rgordon Savant (933) Apr 26, 2012 North Carolina

    Lewis Carroll has been a mentor and I love his language, sensical or not.
  10. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,557) Mar 12, 2009 New York

    Wow! A new forum for other beverages, how cool is that? And cider is here! Raising this one from the dead.

    I live in apple country and cider is big around here. Some of the local cider makers have been doing cool things that definitely put craft cider onto an intersecting path with craft beer. Hopped cider that is bourbon barrel aged is just one of the many takes on cider that is done locally. My nearest alcohol beverage maker is Bad Seed Cider. And I can finally admit here on BA I am a cider lover, fermented and not fermented too. Good to live in apple country.

    So far this thread has been discussion of the propriety of discussing cider here, leading up to now. Any other cider lovers out there? What ciders are good by you? Do folks trade ciders?
    meefmoff, TongoRad and donspublic like this.
  11. alexanderplatz

    alexanderplatz Aspirant (245) Jul 5, 2015 Kentucky

    Cider is not beer, but they are amicable. When I. I aired England and Scotland nearly 30 years ago they had taps in the pubs for both beer and cider. If that’s not in the same world then I don’t know what is.
    cavedave likes this.
  12. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,613) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Trader

    One of my local shops turned me on to a relatively new brand called Brooklyn Cider House (the actual orchards are in the Hudson Valley). I've really loved whatever I've tried so far- complex yet tart and refreshing, with a fantastic musky funk going for it. They said that the owner was inspired by the Basque/French ciders, and the product definitely leans in that direction.
    alexanderplatz and cavedave like this.
  13. gclaw4444

    gclaw4444 Initiate (82) Jul 30, 2015 Massachusetts

    I'm excited to have a place to talk about my favorite cider houses on this site. When it's in season i highly suggest ectoplasm from Far From The Tree. Honestly FFTT usually has a number of great and interesting ciders on tap. Downeast used to have some interesting stuff at their taproom, but lately there hasnt been much. I havent been to Bantam in a while but i hope to go back soon to see what's different.
  14. Dan_K

    Dan_K Zealot (503) Nov 8, 2013 Colorado

    Isn't cider legally considered to be Wine, not beer?