Dry hopping with El Dorado and 3711

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by MGarret, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. MGarret

    MGarret Initiate (146) Aug 13, 2015 District of Columbia
    Beer Trader

    Brewed a hoppy saison today with a wheat base, 3711 French saison yeast, and a bunch of El Dorado at flame out. 2 oz left, thoughts on best timing for dry hop with this yeast/hop combo? I'm inclined to do the dry hop in one go for the sake of simplicity, could try at 72 hours into fermentation for biotransformation, or else around 48 hours before bottling.

    Advice welcome!
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    “could try at 72 hours into fermentation for biotransformation”. Unless you have specific knowledge on this exact combo (i.e., El Dorado hops and the Wyeast 3711 strain) whether biotransformation will actually occur is a crap shoot. Biotransformation is both hop variety and yeast strain dependent. Not a lot of science on the specifics out there. You could give it a go and see what happens?

    “…or else around 48 hours before bottling.” In my opinion two days of dry hopping is too short but maybe you are looking for less extraction of the hop essential oils?

    My personal preference when it comes to dry hopping is to wait until sign of fermentation is complete (i.e., no more out-gassing from the primary) and a minimum contact time of 7 days. I personally place my dry hops (pellets) within a sanitized muslin bag weighed down with sanitized glass marbles.

    Just yesterday I bottled an El Dorado IPA which I dry hopped with 3 ounces of pellet hops for a duration of 11 days.

    Cheers!
     
    Maestro0708 and MGarret like this.
  3. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,176) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    Not all yeasts allow for biotransformations.
     
    Prep8611 and JackHorzempa like this.
  4. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    And it is hop variety dependent as well - something I learned at last week's HomebrewCon.

    Cheers!
     
    Maestro0708 and SFACRKnight like this.
  5. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,724) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Premium Member

    Which talk? I'll look forward to viewing it, and probably all the rest, via the AHA website when they are posted.
     
    Maestro0708 likes this.
  6. MGarret

    MGarret Initiate (146) Aug 13, 2015 District of Columbia
    Beer Trader

    Interesting! I have no idea about whether 3711 and/or El Dorado are compatible for biotransformation, so I may wait until vigorous fermentation is done to dry hop.

    On the timing for the pre bottling side, I've been going off of this Scott Janish literature review, which suggests that most hop compounds are dissolved within the first 24 hours - http://scottjanish.com/examination-...s-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/
     
    EvenMoreJesus likes this.
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Better hopping through science - tales from MBAA by Doug Brown & Chris Hotz. Watch/listen to the video of the presentation.

    Cheers!
     
    pweis909 likes this.
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    You have to have detailed understanding of the brewing system that was used in the study. Does the study system have the same size and configuration as your home primary? If so, feel free to follow those results. I can report that my homebrewery is different from those studies.

    Cheers!
     
  9. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (752) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Never tried 3711 with El Dorado...but, I can tell you this: it will be very dry and hoppy, depending on grist :grimacing:
    I'd throw 15% oat meal in the mash and hope for the best.
     
  10. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Barry, have you ever had Boulevard Tank 7 Saison? If so, what do you think of that beer?

    Cheers!

    @JeremyDanner
     
  11. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (301) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    If it were me I would wait until after fermentation is done as French saison yeast is a beast and you will blow off a ton of hop aroma.
     
    MGarret likes this.
  12. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (957) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Unless you have studies to the contrary, I'd disagree with this statement.
     
  13. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (957) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

  14. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,176) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    I suppose that road goes both ways doesn't it? Most of my "studies" would meet your derision and deemed "anecdotal".
     
  15. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Savant (957) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Though I understand your hesitation, I am simply curious, as I have not read anything to say otherwise.
     
  16. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (752) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Jack, I'm sure I've had it...but not recently...which makes me think it didn't have El Dorado in it.
    edit: their video says Amarillo
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Yes, Tank 7 uses Amarillo vs. El Dorado.

    My question/comment was more intended as 'generic' hoppy Saison (e.g., your statement of "very dry and hoppy").

    FWIW I am a fan of Tank 7 as being "very dry and hoppy" with no need for augmentation of oatmeal needed (for my palate).

    Cheers!
     
    GreenKrusty101 likes this.
  18. Push_the_limits

    Push_the_limits Initiate (129) Feb 8, 2018 Antarctica

    I recently dryhopped a 3711 saison with 2 oz mandarina bavaria for 8 days. I waited until fermentation was complete. However, in my case, I think the fruitiness of the dryhop, along with the flavors of 3711, were really compatible and compliment each other well. I've been appreciating it. I have a 1lb of el dorado and will use it soon in a saison.
     
    MGarret likes this.
  19. MGarret

    MGarret Initiate (146) Aug 13, 2015 District of Columbia
    Beer Trader

    I used the same recipe with Mandarina instead of El Dorado for a previous batch-worked out great!
     
    Push_the_limits likes this.
  20. JeremyDanner

    JeremyDanner Aspirant (238) Dec 20, 2005 Missouri
    Industry

    I can confirm that we do not use El Dorado hops in Tank 7.

    Kettle hops: Bravo, Cascade, Amarillo
    Dry-hopping: Amarillo, Citra, Calypso, Lemondrop
     
  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

  22. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (752) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Jack, don't know if they changed their dry hopping, but the 20% corn flakes was interesting from your link.

    Edit: still trying to figure out the "pregelatinized" part...seems redundant for any "flake" adjunct.
    http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Adjuncts.htm#YellowCornFlakes
     
    #22 GreenKrusty101, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  23. JeremyDanner

    JeremyDanner Aspirant (238) Dec 20, 2005 Missouri
    Industry

    That post is from a couple of years ago. As the flavors/aromas of Amarillo hops have evolved over time, we've played with the late/dry-hopping to keep Tank 7 consistent.
     
    donspublic and JackHorzempa like this.
  24. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Jeremy, I infrequently homebrew with Amarillo hops. Can you please relate to me what changes you folks have experienced with Amarillo over the past couple of years? My personal experiences with Amarillo of the recent past is that the aroma/flavor was predominantly citrus (orange-like) in my beers. What flavors are the 2017 Amarillo hops presenting to you folks? Is this more of a hop farm thing or a crop year thing?

    Thank you in advance for your consideration of my queries.

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
  25. JeremyDanner

    JeremyDanner Aspirant (238) Dec 20, 2005 Missouri
    Industry

    We use a GCMS to analyze hops to quantify oils/compounds to give us a fairly good idea of the flavors/aromas that will manifest when the hops are added during the boil, whirlpooling or when dry-hopping. We noticed a reduction of some of the fruity/citrus character over time and started using a blend of hops that gave us a similar oil/compound profile in the final beer to keep the hop flavor/aroma of Tank 7 consistent over time. Our quality lab manager tests hops each time we get in a new lot or crop year. He also runs tests as the hops age in our cooler to make up for loss of intensity of flavor/aroma over time.
     
    donspublic and JackHorzempa like this.
  26. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,575) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Premium Member

    Gas chromatography–mass spectrometry is indeed a useful brewery lab analytic tool. Thanks for doing this in your brewing.
    Thanks for this input! It may be very useful in some upcoming batches. An IPA that I make from time to time is a Simcoe/Amarillo IPA (my version of Duet). It might be wise for me to 'augment' with some other citrusy hops to compensate for the changes in Amarillo.

    Thanks for all of your contributions in this thread!

    Jack
     
    JeremyDanner likes this.