End of Year Beer Style Updates (2021)

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Dec 2, 2021.

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  1. Amendm

    Amendm Meyvn (1,120) Jun 7, 2018 Rhode Island
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    It wouldn't hurt, the more info the better.
    Adding to the title might be easier than creating a new style. Cheers.
     
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  2. Sheppard

    Sheppard Poo-Bah (2,301) Mar 16, 2013 Massachusetts
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    I second this. Been very vocal on this and look forward to being able to more easily check out these amazing beers.
     
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  3. Rug

    Rug Poo-Bah (2,225) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
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    You mean "Czech out these amazing beers"?

    I'll show myself out
     
  4. Sheppard

    Sheppard Poo-Bah (2,301) Mar 16, 2013 Massachusetts
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    Haha I saw the pun when I typed it out but didn't want to make it too obvious.
     
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  5. gatornation

    gatornation Poo-Bah (12,600) Apr 18, 2007 Florida
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    All mentioned above
    Imperial NEIPA
    Golden Ale
    Session IPA/APA
    Oh and delete Brut IPA
     
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  6. morimech

    morimech Poo-Bah (4,400) Nov 6, 2006 Minnesota
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    Pastry/Adjunct IPA
    Pastry/Adjunct Stout

    That would take care of 80% of the new beers released the last couple of years.
     
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  7. Sammy

    Sammy Poo-Bah (15,780) Dec 1, 2003 Canada (ON)
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    Italian Pilsner - hot style in Ontario for the last year
    Imperial NEIPA -
     
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  8. Gajo74

    Gajo74 Poo-Bah (3,225) Sep 14, 2014 New York
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    My $.02, I’d like to see Grisette and Table Beer (English and Belgian), Italian Pilsner. I also want to see lactose IPA clearly marked as a style so that I stay the hell away from it.
     
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  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,821) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    The whole thing of “Italian Pilsner” being a unique substyle is a bunch of nonsense; an “Italian Pilsner” is simply a German Pilsner which is dry hopped with noble hops which German brewers have been doing for generations and still do. As I posted in a past BA thread:

    “And German breweries have been dry hopping their beers (including Pilsners) for generations:

    “German breweries that dry hops their Pilsners/Lagers

    “Kopp wrote via email that members of traditional family breweries acknowledge their ancestors were familiar with the technique. In some cases, those breweries are making dry-hopped lagers today. Ruperti Pils from Brauerei Wieninger in upper Bavaria is an example of one.”

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/brewers-perspective-the-origins-and-elements-of-tipopils.645790/page-2#post-70575

    Cheers!
     
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  10. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (10,586) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
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    Liked for Table Beer
     
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  11. Sheppard

    Sheppard Poo-Bah (2,301) Mar 16, 2013 Massachusetts
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    I agree about grisette, table beer, etc because we can give those styles their due. Instead of being lost in the farmhouse, they can be credited for their own greatness.

    I think Italian Pilsners are communicated as being dry hopped German Pilsners, but there's more to than that to them. They're fermented at different temps. They're softer and more perfumey than German Pilsners. The malt character seems to be sacrificed as well. I mean, some "Italian Pilsners" ARE remarketed German Pilsners because the style is trendy, but I do consider it another style. I do think that they should be rated separate of German Pilsners too. They have different qualities IMO.

    EDIT: to add, the remarketed German Pils are usually bad as Italian Pils.
     
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  12. stevoj

    stevoj Poo-Bah (11,804) Nov 22, 2011 Idaho
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    My experience with the Italian pilseners (from Italy) are kind of chalky, due to the hard water they have there, and it seems some of the American ones have conditioned the water to get that chalky feel.

    Please note: I not an expert. Be kind.
     
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  13. Gajo74

    Gajo74 Poo-Bah (3,225) Sep 14, 2014 New York
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    Agreed! I’d specifically like to see Czech Dark Lager.
     
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  14. Sheppard

    Sheppard Poo-Bah (2,301) Mar 16, 2013 Massachusetts
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    I have never gotten chalky out of Italian Pilsners but everyone's palates are different.
     
  15. 2beerdogs

    2beerdogs Poo-Bah (3,241) Jan 31, 2005 California
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    Oye, oye....Get rid of Brut IPA, as a category and as a brew.
     
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  16. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (10,586) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
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    I still can't get over how instantaneously Brut IPA was added, especially with how long NE IPA took to get added, when Brut IPA barely distinguished itself as unique and no two breweries executed it the same way, and it's already extinct.
     
  17. cyclonece09

    cyclonece09 Poo-Bah (2,652) Aug 5, 2008 Wisconsin
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    We had a quite robust conversation about this in a thread when the Style Council began. I think the consensus we came to was that putting beer in a barrel does not change the style, although it does change the character. Therefore we advocated for the current convention where a barrel aged variant of a beer is its own beer listing, ie XYZ Brewing Stout and XYZ Brewing Stout Bourbon Barrel Aged should be two separate beer listings.
     
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  18. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Poo-Bah (3,727) May 30, 2005 Michigan
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    Currently under the BA Wheat Beer grouping there is an American Dark style listed. What about just an American Dark Ale category to allow non-wheat recipes to fit somewhere? I just had a dark beer that is called Dark Ale by the brewer, but a description of the beer does not include wheat. I added it to the BA database under Black IPA just to fit it somewhere.
     
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  19. Harrison8

    Harrison8 Poo-Bah (5,514) Dec 6, 2015 Missouri
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    If we're running based on votes:

    Imperial NE IPA
    Table Beer
    Czech Dark Lager
    Czech Lager
    Stout - pastry (more than 3 flavor additives)

    I'm less than thrilled with breaking out coffee specifically, even as someone who seeks out coffee beers. For example, Founder's Breakfast Stout kept getting brought up for best coffee beer, but it has more flavor additions than just coffee. Likewise, then would you put BA Coffee Shop Vibes, BA Sump, Coffee Shop Vibes, and Sump all into the coffee stout category? They're hearty RIS beers. Not an even comparison with coffee beers such as Surly's Coffee Bender or Mother's Winter Grind. These two are standard American Stouts.
     
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  20. StonedTrippin

    StonedTrippin Poo-Bah (24,099) May 28, 2011 Colorado
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    second what a lot of others have said here, for me italian pils, grisette, mexican specific lagers, and straight up kettle sour remain the most common "compromises" when i add new beers. also imperial/double new england style ipa, right not its a choice between double or hazy, i think having a hazy double category has become necessary as well. thanks for doing this!
     
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  21. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Poo-Bah (3,727) May 30, 2005 Michigan
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    If this entry gets any support to be incorporated as a style, it should also use the name 'Black Ale' along with 'Dark Ale' since both names get used when naming beers in this category.
     
  22. jesskidden

    jesskidden Poo-Bah (2,543) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
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    Except many such beers you are likely referring to are not brewed with "adjuncts" as long-defined by the brewing industry (as opposed to the mistaken definition used by the geekery) as illustrated by these two definitions from The Master Brewers Association of the Americas' The Practical Brewer, 1947 and 1972 editions, respectively:
    [​IMG]
    Brewers can (unfortunately :grin:) flavor their beer with all sorts of fruits, vegetables, nuts, herbs, spices, animal products, kids breakfast cereal and other flavorings - even some with some sugar content - before, during or after fermentation, but that doesn't make those added ingredients "adjuncts".

    The original Ballantine India Pale Ale, as brewed by P. Ballantine & Sons and successor, Falstaff, was an Adjunct IPA, brewed with corn grits. Adjunct Stouts would include varieties of Guinness Stout which are brewed with the addition of unmalted roasted barley along with barley malt.
     
    #62 jesskidden, Dec 4, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2021
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  23. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (4,790) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Moderator Society Trader

    Agreed, American Dark Wheat Ale seems like a really redundant, obscure style that is not even on neither Untappd nor Ratebeer, even though these sites otherwise have a lot more style definitions than Beer Advocate has.

    I would also make a case for merging English Pale and Dark Mild Ale simply into English Mild Ale.
     
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  24. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Poo-Bah (4,790) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Moderator Society Trader

    Also:

    IPA - Imperial New England
    Stout - Pastry
    Sour - Pastry
    Other - Historical Ale
    English Golden Ale
     
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  25. JerzDevl2000

    JerzDevl2000 Poo-Bah (4,660) Oct 7, 2005 New Jersey
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    I'm about to review a new beer from Source (Girard Jams Remix) and they describe it as an Imperial Sweet Tart Ale. Not sure where that would fall on here, so any changes that would make adding something like this easier would be appreciated!
     
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  26. Rug

    Rug Poo-Bah (2,225) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
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    What was it like? Hopefully your review can help place what the style is lol. Gonna assume a Fruited Kettle Sour
     
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  27. JerzDevl2000

    JerzDevl2000 Poo-Bah (4,660) Oct 7, 2005 New Jersey
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    Good question! It's somewhere between that, and an American IPA with lactic acid since this has Mosaic in it too and is at 8.0% ABV.

    I've had enough Sour IPA's from places like Hudson Valley and even seeing offshoots and variations such as this made me realize that there needs to be at least one category change or addition to accommodate newer brews such as this!
     
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  28. Rug

    Rug Poo-Bah (2,225) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
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    Totally agree Sour IPA needs to be a style!
     
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  29. JerzDevl2000

    JerzDevl2000 Poo-Bah (4,660) Oct 7, 2005 New Jersey
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    I'd have to agree but like many on here, I don't want there to be too many divisions of styles as to render the categories excessive.

    In this instance, I think it's overdue!
     
  30. BucannonXC5

    BucannonXC5 Poo-Bah (4,678) Jul 10, 2011 California
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    I have an excel sheet that I have as a backup (and I'm 450 beers behind right now), but I like adding:

    New England Pale Ale
    New England Double / Imperial IPA
    New England Triple / Imperial IPA (10.0 pct. and above)
    Triple / Imperial IPA (10.0 pct. and above)
    American Pastry Stout (encompasses all pastries)
    American Pilsner (hoppy pilsners that really don't fit into other pilsner categories)
    Double Milk / Sweet Stout
    Milkshake IPA
    Sour IPA
     
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  31. Rug

    Rug Poo-Bah (2,225) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
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    Agree on a lot of this, but I personally don't see a need for a distinction between DIPA and TIPA. I say just list them as an imperial version of their substyle. Triple/Quadruple/etc gets redundant
     
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  32. smcolw

    smcolw Poo-Bah (10,174) Jan 16, 2004 Massachusetts
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    I have a bit of crazy idea: What if there was a checkbox to make any style "Imperial" or even "Session"? Then you could nest styles into broader categories and yet retain the designation for any beer that fits qualification.
     
  33. SLeffler27

    SLeffler27 Poo-Bah (3,021) Feb 24, 2008 New York
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    A perfect opportunity for a check-box for variation on the base style. Just like Session and Imperial could be.
     
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  34. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,714) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Creating beer tags has been discussed in other threads. While it's something I'd like to add one day, it's currently not an option and rather large project to tackle.
     
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  35. BigIronH

    BigIronH Poo-Bah (1,929) Oct 31, 2019 Michigan
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    B43 alive and well.:wink:
     
  36. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,714) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Doesn't look like there's a lot of consensus or enthusiasm for adding some new styles, but I'll give it some thought this week and look at what we can add before the end of the year.
     
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  37. Harrison8

    Harrison8 Poo-Bah (5,514) Dec 6, 2015 Missouri
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    Any thought of adding a poll with the dozen or so options mentioned?

    FWIW, the only style I'm really concerned with adding at the moment is NE DIPA. I suspect when the annual stats come out we'll see a significant number of "new" IPAs listed, with some listed as DIPAs and others as NE IPAs, when their correct style would be NE DIPA+. Having this delineation would be in line with other style separations for popular / high production styles. The "+" meaning it could be a double, triple, quadruple, etc. etc.
     
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  38. Rug

    Rug Poo-Bah (2,225) Aug 20, 2018 Massachusetts
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    +1 for the poll idea. Maybe give out the options and let us rank our top 3 or so?
     
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  39. Sabtos

    Sabtos Poo-Bah (10,586) Dec 15, 2015 Ohio
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    I think there were a lot of valid responses, and more than anything it's clear we are missing a good number of categories. As opposed to not having enough enthusiasm, I think the wide array of needed categories makes it harder to be passionate about a single one.

    Honestly I'd be very excited to see splitting up saison for grisette and table beer, at least, as well as adding the official MT classifications for non-Belgian gueze and lambic.

    Icing on the cake would include additional categorization for Czech lager varieties, Double NE IPA, milkshake IPA, sour IPA, and pastry stouts.

    And again, we can't forget licthenheiner.
     
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  40. BigIronH

    BigIronH Poo-Bah (1,929) Oct 31, 2019 Michigan
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    I’m in the camp that the amount of styles is unnecessary and so many are disagreed upon by lots of us. Looking back just over the last year alone, I have seen a number of disagreements in the forums regarding “what” is “what” and each time, it inevitably ends with an agree to disagree type of situation. At the end of the day, each of these styles and the beers contained within them is open for interpretation. Often times I’ve even seen folks disagree with the brewers descriptions of their own beer. That to me only reaffirms how silly some of it is.

    I’m sure there’s plenty of naysayers but I also know there’s many who agree. I’m content using the styles just as they are now, nothing changed or added.

    Cheers.
     
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