First all grain batch, lots of questions

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by dennho, Oct 16, 2013.

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  1. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

    I brewed five extract beers last season and the last one was pretty good. I think I'm ready to take the all grain plunge. Putting together the mash tun and I got a recipe and advice at the LHBS. I'm batch sparging and I have some questions. I've got some conflicting information and I'd like some advice.

    I wanted to start simple. I'm brewing an IPA with 11lbs of German pale, 1lb of Crystal and 1/2lb of Melanoidin. I have a bunch of Centennial hops I want to use.

    I want to have 6 1/2 gallons of wort to end up with a 5 gallon batch. I'm using 1.25 quarts of mash water per pound of grain, that's 3 1/2 gallons. I assume 1.1 gallons of water absorbed by the grain, so I mash with 4.6 gallons. I don't know if I'll lose any water in the cooler. It's a Coleman xtreme. It looks like I can drain everything out.

    I've read different things about the mash time. Some people says 10 - 20 minutes, some say an hour. The LHBS said 90 minutes. I'm thinking an hour. I've heard different mash temps. I'm thinking 160ish water to get a 150ish mash.

    If my assumptions are correct I should get 3.5 gallons from the first runnings, so I need to add about 3 gallons of 160ish degree water. How long does this sit before going into the kettle?

    The hops are all Centennial. LHBS says 1 oz at 90, 20, and 5 minutes. (they want a 90 minute boil) I want another addition late in the boil or at flameout.

    Anything I'm missing? Thanks for your input. Anything at all will be appreciated.
     
  2. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    You won't lose much water to dead space in the cooler, just the grain. Plan for just shy of a cup per pound of grain in the bill. You'll come out ahead a little and be ok. I usually mash at 1.25 qt/# and I get about a gallon and a half from my first runnings (10-12 # bills). The grain's already wet so I'll need another 5 gal to sparge with. I have about 9-10 gal of water ready on brewday.

    Most of your conversion on most base malts is done in 20ish minutes. Go 60 anyway for your first time--especially if you don't test for conversion with iodine. If you end up low on your mash temp, around 148, then you can consider 90 minutes. The only other reason to extend the time would be for toasted grains or something you'd expect to convert slowly. I don't trust pumpkin to convert in 60 minutes.

    I do a preheat on my cooler with water that's too hot. I go up to about 173 or 174F. I let it cool down to mash temp + 14F and I'm always within 1F after 5 minutes of stirring. The grain is at room temp. Have ice cubes and extra boiling water on hand just in case.

    I'd do a 60 minute boil. Adjust your bittering hops so that you hit your IBU mark. The purpose of the melanoidin malt is so that you don't have to extend your boil or do something ridiculous like a decoction. :slight_smile:
     
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  3. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    One of the biggest mistakes I made going all grain was assuming that I would only need x amount of water ready for sparging. I usually mash in at 1qt per lb because if I am a little cold I can add more hot water. Use a brewing calculator with strike water calculations to at least get close. If I need 4 gallons of strike water in theory, I will have twice that on hand. As for sparging, I get about 8 gallons of my sparge water ready so I won't run out. Nothing worse than having your hlt run out and you only have 6 gallons of runnings. You can never have too much water ready. Other than thaat I mash between 145 and 155 depending on beer style, and mash for an hour at higher temps, and two for lower temps just to be safe. Good luck, and rdwhahb!
     
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  4. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,111) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    Base your mash water not including the absorption. So, mash with 3.5 gallons. This means you'll probably get ~ 2.5 gallons from just the mash - which means you want to sparge with at least to 4 gallons. I don't think batch sparging takes longer than about 10-15 minutes before draining the kettle (usually I fly.)

    10-20 minutes? Not enough time for conversion. Typically, 60 minutes is good. Mash time and tempature will change fermentability of the wort, making it sweeter/fuller (high temp, less time) or drier (low temp, more time). For first batch, KISS and go for an hour. Not sure how you like your IPAs - 152/153 should do the trick. Strike temp can be calculated via internet calculator thingies; hey, here's one!

    http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

    You may want to use more at later times. Maybe 1oz 90, 30 min, 5 min, another 1oz at flameout. You need to dry hop your IPA - at least 2 oz.

    You're off to a good start! Good luck!
     
  5. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    Oh, and have a pound or two of DME on hand. We'll be hearing from you within a week asking why you got low efficiency and a low OG. We'll instantly point a finger at the fineness of the crush of your grains. DME is still a completely acceptable part of the game.
     
  6. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

    Yup, got that.
     
  7. mugs1789

    mugs1789 Zealot (611) Dec 6, 2005 Maryland

    All good advice above. I suspect that strike water at 160 is not going to get you to 150 mash temp. Palmer's book, "How to Brew" has a formula for computing the best temp for strike water based on target mash temp, strike water per pound of grain, and temp of strike water. The book is available online and you should be able to find that formula.

    I typically mash a little thicker and mash in at about 168. I also preheat the mash tun, which was mentioned above. For me, that means pouring in a quart or half gallon of water at 170, swishing it around, and letting it sit for a few minutes before dumping it out and then promptly mashing while the MT is warm.

    Edit: I see that MattBK beat me to the mention of strike water temp and even found a calculator. The calculator also has the link to HTB by Palmer with the formula I mentioned.
     
  8. sjverla

    sjverla Initiate (0) Dec 1, 2008 Massachusetts

    Well, we're both in Massachusetts, so our systems will function exactly the same, so I'll tell you what to exactly expect. My temp drops pretty reliably by 18 degrees. I just pre-heat with hot tap water (~105-110F).

    Honestly I don't think striking at 160 is hot enough. I don't want to trash anyone's hard work by saying the calculators don't work - but be skeptical. Not all will work for everyone. Since this is your first AG batch they're a useful place to start, but the larger sample size you build for brewing, rely on your own notes and calculations. As a point of illustration (and like I said, your experience will be identical :wink:), I just did my 4th AG batch and based my volumes on some algebra based on a previous batch (absorption, dead space, boil off) and nailed my volumes. Exactly 6 gals in the kettle, exactly 5 in the fermenter.

    Good luck!
     
  9. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,452) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Society Pooh-Bah

    I strike at about 165 to hit 150 mash temp. Numbers can and do vary based on lots of things. In the winter your equipment is cooler, so even that can make a difference.

    Ignore the LHBS's hops advice. Use the MOAR HOPS plan if you're wanting an IPA. The APA IPA is a pretty good and fairly typical hop schedule for an IPA (obviously adjust it for your specific hops and their AAs).

    60 minute boils are fine, unless maybe you're using pilsner malt, in which case go for 90. Boil with lid OFF, obviously. A good rolling boil prevents scorching (you probably already know that tho).

    Mash for an hour. Longer is fine. Shorter is iffy.

    If you use beersmith, it will take a few batches to dial in your parameters. There's a good guide for how to do that on beersmith's website. I don't have the link handy on this computer, too lazy to look it up, but it's there. You want to dial in your numbers because you probably won't hit everything right on the money at first. This is not a major worry tho, just don't make any beers that will be highly dependent on very tight parameters. I was off by about ten points on gravity before I got dialed in, but the beers still came out fine.

    As a rule, I get more water than I need going for both strike and sparge. It's easy to get more ready ahead of time, and a pain to get it ready after you discover you're short.

    Keep extra stuff on hand, including yeast, key pieces of equipment (bottle capper, siphon tubing, campden tablets, etc). Oh and definitely keep an extra propane tank handy if you're using a turkey fryer or outdoor setup. I have two tanks, so one is always full until the other runs out, at which point I refill.

    Lots of good advice on this thread. However, here's one you should also consider: don't over-think it. Relax, have a homebrew, and don't panic. Really once I got done with the first batch, I was like "how easy was that?" It's not that hard, it just seems daunting at first. All grain does require more time, but most of the extra time is spent waiting, so it's not like there's anything to panic over. All grain brewing, like most beer brewing, is pretty forgiving as long as your essentials are solid. All grain recipes almost always produce beer. Sure, some are better than others, but don't be afraid to experiment. A drinkable experiment is still pretty satisfying to consume, even if it's not fantastic.
     
  10. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    You really want to use a mash calculator or you will just be guessing. Lots of good ones . . . I have found Brewers Friend to be helpful (and free):
    http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

    A couple of additional tips:
    Invest in a good thermometer. Getting your mash temp is critical and a cheap-ass thermometer is not the way to go. It takes a few minutes for the temps (grain/water/mash-tun) to equalize, stir often and vigorously. As mentioned, keep some extra boiling water and ice cubes available until you figure out your system. It sounds silly, but most thermometers will not float in your mash . . . work this problem before you are sweating over a mash-tun. Coleman Xtreme is a good 'un, but the top can still allow heat to escape, a thick towel on the lid can only help. Measure your temps again after the mashing is completed, this tells you how efficient your mash-tun behaved.

    Ideally you want the wort to go straight from the mash tun to the brew kettle (and heat). Allowing the wort temp to drop can effect your sugar profile.

    Centennial is an excellent choice. You probably want some flame out additions and definitely some dry hop additions (2+ ounces). This is how Bell's Two Hearted Ale is hopped and it's mighty good.
     
  11. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

    That's what I was hoping for, real world info not interweb info.
    Thanks.
     
  12. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

    Great advice. It's appreciated.
     
  13. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

    . . I have found Brewers Friend to be helpful (and free):
    http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

    Nice and simple to use. Thank you.

    A couple of additional tips:
    Invest in a good thermometer. Getting your mash temp is critical and a cheap-ass thermometer is not the way to go. It takes a few minutes for the temps (grain/water/mash-tun) to equalize, stir often and vigorously.

    I've got two nice thermometers, good there.

    As mentioned, keep some extra boiling water and ice cubes available until you figure out your system. It sounds silly, but most thermometers will not float in your mash . . . work this problem before you are sweating over a mash-tun. Coleman Xtreme is a good 'un, but the top can still allow heat to escape, a thick towel on the lid can only help. Measure your temps again after the mashing is completed, this tells you how efficient your mash-tun behaved.

    Awesome, thanks for the input.
     
  14. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,915) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah

    I preheat my mash tun with about half a gallon of boiling water for about 10 mins (the dump that water) before adding the strike water and grains. I heat my strike water ~10 degrees above my target mash temp and hit within 1 degree every time. This is one of those things that there obviously are calculators out there for but its also about learning and knowing your particular system.

    I double batch sparge. After you lauter and once you add your sparge water stir the grains up a lot to even out the temp and to make the water find new paths to drain to make sure you get as much sugar as possible. I let my sparge water/grains sit for 15 or so mins before draining.

    Cover your mash tun with a blanket or something to insulate it while performing the mash to help hold the temp steady.

    I always mash for 60 minutes or more.

    I just brewed a 100% Centennial IPA and it came out great! You will not be disappointed. I went with 8.7%AA Centennial Hops:

    2oz @ 60 mins
    .5oz @ 10 mins
    .5oz @ 5 mins
    1oz @ 0
    1oz hopstand for 25 mins @ 180 degrees
    2oz Dry Hop

    The beer is about 6.3% with about 70ibus. Grains were 2-Row, Vienna, and C-20. Fermented with Wyeast 1318.
     
  15. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

    Well that wasn't so bad.
    A few glitches, but overall ok.
    My yeast starter overflowed twice. I got 6.3 gallons in the kettle and just under five in the fermenter.
    I think I used too many hops, all Centennial:
    2oz @ 60
    1oz @ 15
    .5oz @ 10
    .5oz @ 5
    1oz hopstand for 25 minutes. (thanks for the input OddNotion).
    Tons of hops floating around in this. The bottom inch of my hydrometer test jars was full of them! I don't know if I should still dry hop.
    1.042 into the kettle, 1.055 into the fermenter. Not very good efficiency but now that I've done it I know where I can improve.
    Can't wait to do it again.
    Thanks everyone for your support.
     
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  16. AlCaponeJunior

    AlCaponeJunior Grand Pooh-Bah (3,452) May 21, 2010 Texas
    Society Pooh-Bah

    That's not too much hops. Of course too much hops is an oxymoron anyway, so... :rolling_eyes:

    It will frequently look like you used too much hops, but that just says you didn't use too little. :sunglasses:
     
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  17. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    I recommend you don't get hung up on IBU count. The mission for your hops is threefold: (1) Bitterness, this is your early addition and is the majority of your IBU count. Primary job is to balance the sweetness. (2) Flavor, this what pleases your taste buds. The late additions make this happen. (3) Aroma, this comes from your DH additions and helps define a great IPA. If you do not dry hop you can expect mediocre aroma at best.

    Here's a pretty good read on the process:
    http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php
    At the end of the article you see a recipe for Evil Twin which has zero early additions but still has a great flavor and aroma (I've made it) with a low IBU.

    A nylon paint strainer bag (Home Depot) will minimize the hop debris. And I suggest you dry hop in the 1-4 oz range as planned and enjoy a potentially great IPA.
     
  18. dennho

    dennho Initiate (0) Oct 29, 2006 New York

     
  19. b-one

    b-one Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 California

    Usually after 7 days is mostly what I see.
    What I didn't see here is fermentation advice. Maybe you have that part down. I give everything 2 weeks, more if it's in the IS range. Don't underestimate the value of yeast cleaning up the debris even after main fermentation has stopped.
     
  20. PortLargo

    PortLargo Pooh-Bah (1,831) Oct 19, 2012 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    Don't worry too much about hop debris, it will settle to the bottom. It is fairly easy to siphon from above and/or use a filter to keep your beer clear.

    I normally don't drink an IPA before 6 weeks. So I would not DH until the last possible time, typically start DH'ing on the 4th to 5th week. The loss of hop aroma is noticeable after about 60 days from bottling, so I delay the DH as long as practical. Remember, every time you can smell the wonderful aroma, that's hop-aroma molecules that are lost forever. My technique is to skip the secondary and add dry hops straight to my primary bucket in a nylon bag.

    How 'bout those BoSox . . .
     
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