Franciscan Estate winery says: "Grilling? Beer is for amateurs."

Discussion in 'Beer & Food' started by Todd, Nov 16, 2013.

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  1. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Choosing to barrel age or not to barrel age is up to the winemaker or the brewer. Not every wine is barrel aged and neither should every beer be. Different beer styles (e.g. DIPA) are seeing oak these days tho'. It's about experimentation.
    In addition to Rogue there's Sierra Nevada and some smaller breweries that are growing there own hops and barley. Others breweries are wet hopping their beers w/ hops from farms reflecting terroir character.
  2. VitisVinifera

    VitisVinifera Initiate (189) Feb 25, 2013 California
    Beer Trader

    That's because it's far more difficult to homemake wine than beer. With wine you need to be living near a Vinifera-producing region, so that's pretty much just the West Coast. You need more equipment also, and it takes a lot longer to get a wine to it's drinking window, and during that time many home winemakers aren't versed enough in wine chemistry to know what needs to be done to a wine to keep it from oxidizing, refermenting, malo, etc.

    I see a lot of these cheap stovetop beer making kits sold during the holidays. Can be done by anyone, anywhere, any time.
  3. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Zealot (522) Mar 10, 2006 Vermont

    I agree that you need to get good grapes; they don't really grow near me, or I'd probably make some wine occasionally. And no mere mortal can get his hands on the really good grapes. The other comparisons don't make a lot of sense though. Lambic often spends 6+ years in barrels before being bottled. Many barleywines aren't worth drinking for a year or so. Beer production from the malt is considerably more complicated than winemaking, where the juice will ferment without any special treatment (not that treatment isn't sometimes advisable to get the best fermentation). All those wine pitfalls happen to beer too, maybe more often because beer generally has less alcohol and acidity to protect it. Those 'stovetop beer making kits' are the exact equivalent of cheap juice concentrate for wine, not relevant to a discussion of higher quality products.

    edit: we have strayed awfully far from the original topic so I'm signing off from the thread now.
  4. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    "Different beer styles (e.g. DIPA) are seeing oak these days tho'. Its about experimentation."

    It might be about experimentation, but will it work? Is experimentation also a sign of desperation?

    I don't mind experimentation for the most part, in fact, that's how I was able to come up with all of the pairings I've been able to pull off. My question is: the oak barrels with the strong hop presence of some DIPA's?

    I'm not saying the companies I mentioned earlier couldn't do it. Its more like, would they do it?

    I'm pretty sure the phrase "don't change, what ain't broke" applies here.

    Instead of continuing to argue this part of the wine aspect, I read enough and have talked with more than enough people that craft beer is on the rise and that wine is not the better pairing.

    I'll leave you with this: how many wine drinkers have left wine to drink beer compared to beer drinkers leaving beer to drink wine? I actually don't know if this statistic exists anywhere, but I do know there's more people I've met in my life time that don't drink wine any more period because they've been turned on into the craft beer industry.
  5. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    I don't wanna say either is more complex than the other in term of product or process. The quality of raw materials makes a huge difference for both. There is no substitute for great grapes or great juice. But if you don't have either what do you do then? That's when wine making becomes an art.
    In regard to complexity of each product I remind you again that wine includes spiced wine (e.g. Mai Wein), dark nutty gooey sherry, golden syrupy dessert wines, port, sparkling wine...
    skivtjerry likes this.
  6. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Yeah I'm not sure what you're talking about. First you say experimentation is a sign of desperation then say it's helped you in regard to pairing then say if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Dude it's not a contest between beer and wine. It's not a zero sum game. I've traveled thousands of miles to chase wine in California and I have also travelled thousands of miles to chase beer in the Czech Republic. And it's all good.
  7. VitisVinifera

    VitisVinifera Initiate (189) Feb 25, 2013 California
    Beer Trader

    how many home beer brewers do you know that make lambic and barleywine?
  8. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    No kidding, "its not a contest between beer and wine" for you or me. I'm sorry you're taking it that way. But apparently this winery that started this discussion thinks so. You don't seem to be getting the point.
    Face it, wineries treat craft brewing as a threat? I'm not sure why you can't understand this and that is why I believe Todd posted what he did.

    If you feel so strong about how great wine is, what are you afraid of starting up Wine Advocate?

    Experimentation can be a sign of desperation for breweries who wish to compete at a higher level. In other words, back to my earlier point that you don't seem to be getting: do you honestly think Heady or Pliny will ever be barrel aged? What is the need for it?
  9. VitisVinifera

    VitisVinifera Initiate (189) Feb 25, 2013 California
    Beer Trader

    it was almost certainly a hired ad agency that made this - sure, someone at Franciscan must have approved this but that person was probably also a marketing person. This ad was probably made by, and meant for, people far from the the craft scene of either beer or wine.
    skivtjerry likes this.
  10. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Who knows but Great Divide, Southern Tier (unearthly), Cigar City (not small breweries) and others all feature oak aged IPAs. So in regard to the two IPAs you keep bringing up we'll see but in regard to other IPAs from well known breweries it's already occurred.
  11. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    Alright, fair enough, I've only had the "original" Unearthly. Southern Tier is extremely limited in Southeast Alaska and most of what I see except for the Pumking is pretty old. Great Divide and Cigar City do not distribute up here, though I hear wonderful things about their beers. If anything, I'll give it to you, maybe my interest is slightly "peeked" a bit. However, I'm unsure if I'll ever see Great Divide or Cigar City, I'm still looking for a Florida trader maybe some day to not just help me review a beer from the state of Florida, but maybe my elusive Jai Alai (sigh, I hope I didn't just sound "desperate" yikes, I probably did :slight_smile:.

    Honestly, in my opinion, thank you for having a good discussion. Maybe I've got some things to think about with wine, but for the most part I will advocate for beer first! Fair enough?
  12. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Zealot (522) Mar 10, 2006 Vermont

    A lot of us make barlewine. Lambic-style, not so much, but a good percentage of our club do make Flanders reds and other sour aged beer. We own a few barrels too.
  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,255) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    This guy does.
  14. chinabeergeek

    chinabeergeek Meyvn (1,256) Aug 10, 2007 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    you do realize that a large amount of wine (probably well over half in terms of volume) is meant to be consumed young, and either never see any wood, or only very briefly?

    as others have mentioned later in the thread, lambics and some flanders ales tend to be barrel aged. also, are you not a fan of anchorage's beers? they're pricey when distributed out of state, but i've found most of them to be quite good, and most of them aren't stouts or barleywines.

    sierra nevada has an estate ale. in fact, their 2013 barley harvest was destroyed so they couldn't brew it last autumn.

    i used to be very gung-ho about beer OVER wine or spirits, like you seem to be. but i eventually found this to be detrimental to my appreciation and advocacy for beer. learning and experiencing the different flavors, aromas, textures that the worlds of wines and spirits provide has only increased my reference points and thus the sensitivity of my palate when tasting beer. it also allows you to connect with wine and scotch aficionados and get them to try things in the beer world. you might be surprised at their receptiveness if you offer them the same.
  15. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    The only thing Anchorage produces that is half good is their Bitter Monk. The rest of the stuff stinks the rat's a$$. Yeah, I get them fresh, what does that make you think? OVER - RATED!

    Good for Sierra Nevada, plus Rogue from my last post, what is it with these wine advocates that can't produce their own website.

    You have nothing to post that will change my mind, please come to the WBAYDN thread, and then talk!

    Can you even post in the NBS?

    I have yet to see you in the Beer and Food Forum as well.

    Wine is in a world of hurting and I'm sorry you can't admit that.

    Yeah, you only used to be "experienced" in the beer world because you most likely didn't experience enough with the various beers.

    Aw come on Mods, get these trollin' mutha effin' wine advocates off this site!
    beerloserLI likes this.
  16. chinabeergeek

    chinabeergeek Meyvn (1,256) Aug 10, 2007 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    lol, i know the mods personally, having volunteered for many years at their fests. good luck trying to report me as a "wine advocate troll". you on the other hand, seem to have a chip on your shoulder. maybe some wine snob stole your parking space while you were rushing in line for an allocated release and you missed out or something, lol. i have over 800 reviews of beers here, and approximately 2000 more handwritten which i simply have given up on entering digitally for the time being. this is what happens when you ASS-U-ME. i don't participate in WBAYDN because i've moved on. i used to do the equivalent "late night beer advocate" threads back on the old forums, and the beer and food forums there, but again, i've moved on. it gets repetitive after a while. plus lately the site has been painfully slow, so even more disincentive.

    maybe you need to relax a little. pour yourself another brew. that is, unless you happen to be a belligerent drunk...
  17. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    I'm glad you know the "ALL" of mods personally, and I'm assuming their "wine advocates" in disguise that want beer to change in every aspect as possible.

    What the f, does hand - written mean? You have how many reviews again? Please tell me again? I want to hear one more time? But yet you can't put all of them to into Beer Advocate.

    I'm really glad you "think" I have a chip on my shoulders. LOL. You're a funny guy.

    I'm glad you've moved on from WBAYDN thread, that's great, have you created a WWAYDN thread on this website, I'm sure that will go well for you. LOL!

    You know, I realize, yes, it can get repetitive, but at the same time, what website is this again? Are we advocating for wine on this website?

    Cheers for BEER and nothing else!
  18. chinabeergeek

    chinabeergeek Meyvn (1,256) Aug 10, 2007 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    who here in this thread wants "beer to change in every aspect possible"? you are building strawmen.

    handwritten means written with PEN or PENCIL on something called... PAPER. i write in my own shorthand faster than i could ever type on a smartphone, so that's how i do things. don't know why this is so confusing for you.

    i only talk about wine here when the thread itself is comparing beer and wine. as long as it still has something to do with beer, these threads have survived throughout most of the history of this website. if this gets you so bent out of shape, just ignore such threads. they are a miniscule minority of topics anyway.
  19. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    You do realize you are on a beer website, right? Why are you advocating for wine on here again? Please state you business.................waiting......... (yes, in your opinion, I'm drunk).

    Sober is a state of mind.........

    I'm just a strawman in your mind......:wink: I'm sorry I'm not your only strawman.
  20. chinabeergeek

    chinabeergeek Meyvn (1,256) Aug 10, 2007 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    the advocacy of beer can be complementary to wine if one allows it. like @Chinon01 said, it doesn't have to be a zero sum game. my interpretation of todd's original post was just to stir conversation. it's not a war (even if some small players want to start one). it may surprise you to know that i've actually seen todd enjoy non-beer cocktails, wines, meads and spirits before. it makes him a better beer advocate as a result.
    #60 chinabeergeek, Jan 6, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  21. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    Funny, but, that's what I said before. It weird, how you just chime in and didn't bother reading the prior posts. I don't doubt that Todd that has enjoyed "non-beer cocktails" but would he "advocate" on his own site.....sigh.... I'm glad it has made him a better "beer advocate," I'm just still trying to understand his original post.....why are we arguing any of this, when Todd was the one who started all of this?

    Are we beer advocates anymore?
  22. chinabeergeek

    chinabeergeek Meyvn (1,256) Aug 10, 2007 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    people here in this thread - and this thread only, not sitewide, so it's not a threat to the mission of this site, as you seem to fear - are simply trying to counter signs of ignorance about wine. if we want to counter similar ignorance about beer amongst wine drinkers (or scotch drinkers or sake drinkers), it's best that we avoid the same about their beverage of choice.

    and again, why does advocating for beer have to be exclusive? saying positive things about wine automatically disqualifies me? that's how a zero-sum game operates. and i'm trying to tell you that it really doesn't have to be that way.
    BeerAssassin likes this.
  23. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    Ok, I will agree with you that it doesn't have to be that way, but my question that the previous three BA's couldn't face up to is that craft beer is on the rise and that there are enough styles and stellar brews that can blow wine and any other liquor out of the water?

    The other two people stood down, because they knew what I was going to.

    Unsure why you can't?

    Hmmm....face it, wine is dieing, craft beer is on the rise! You might wanna get off this site before you get steam rolled. This is still Beer Advocate!

    Oh yeah, by the way, I'm just an arrogant drunk in your eyes.

    Yeah, you might think I'm arrogant, hmmmmm..... no apologies for what I know is an awesome night cap!

    Hey man, are you able to night cap with wine? Is that why you joined Beer Advocate?
  24. beerloserLI

    beerloserLI Defender (612) Apr 2, 2011 New York
    Beer Trader

    I drink beer with everything. Grilling with wine? Please player. I leaves that for the girlfriend and her fruity friends. She fucking loves it too.

    What ever happened to drink what you like, eat what you like? I understand the whole pairing crap going on but for me it's just that simple. The idea that beer over wine is for amateurs is just really simple minded. Plenty of craft beers can pare up with food just as good as wine. The weight for or against only depends on what beverage you want for dinner. I'll take a good beer over a good wine any day and any meal.

    Can a top RIS from founders, sierra nevada, goose island not offer an alternative and equally satisfying take to a merlot/cab? Can a top ipa, heady, pliny, or sucks not offer a good alterative to chardonnay/white? Or even vice versa?

    Most of the barrel aging for beer is from the whiskey business is it not? Bourbon barrel aged. Not negating the oak crap but most of the good shit takes the route of whiskey and not the wine business.
    kabritz and BeerKangaroo like this.
  25. All4MeNone4You

    All4MeNone4You Initiate (0) Oct 27, 2013 Idaho

    I love grilling, and I love beer. However, I've never enjoyed pairing the two. I don't enjoy drinking beer while eating food. Don't know why, but when it's time to eat, gimme and iced tea or a Coke. Neither wine nor beer do it for me while I'm eating. Never have.
  26. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    First you dismissed food and beverage pairing as "crap" asking what happened to just eating and drinking whatever you like. Then you say that craft beers CAN pare (sic) up with food AND just as good as wine does. So which is it is pairing crap or not? And also is it even fair for you to make a statement about wine pairing since you apparently have little experience w/ wine or pairing?
    Then you talk about beer alternatives to wines, wines which again you have very little appreciation for. So how would you know or where you asking us a question?
    As for the barrel aging yes it appears that like whiskey and wine, brewers have found barreling their product can add character to it.
  27. BeerAssassin

    BeerAssassin Initiate (0) Aug 17, 2012 Antarctica

    Just because I think wine tastes better doesn't mean I don't like beer. I love some beers but when eating I would rather have wine most of the time. Many of the beers I love, mainly BA RISs and DIPAs don't seem to go well with food at least in my experience, I prefer my beers to stand alone. Also I've never had my gf say she needed beer to cook with, she has asked for wine however. When she does the food is amazing at least 90% of the time. I recently heard about beer being brewed with the "lees" of wine to make a beer wine hybrid and would love to try that sometime.
  28. kabritz

    kabritz Aspirant (216) Aug 1, 2013 Quebec (Canada)

    You need to try spicier food. Jerk/habanero/sriracha/jalepeno-powered food goes great with a nice citrusy IPA.
    bushycook and BeerKangaroo like this.
  29. beerloserLI

    beerloserLI Defender (612) Apr 2, 2011 New York
    Beer Trader

    "Well didn't the idea of barrel aging beer come from the wine industry?" Bourbon barrel aged came from the whiskey industry. You ever heard of a bourbon barrel aged wine?

    Crap is a general description of your argument. You have no idea who I am or what my background is in anything. So what is your argument? That wine pairs better with food than beer? I disagree and think you are absolutely foolish to believe so. We can both make arguments for both but in the end it comes down to drink what you like.
    BeerKangaroo likes this.
  30. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    No I've never heard of bourbon aged wine. However as stated above Great Divide, Southern Tier (unearthly), Cigar City and others all feature (like wine) oak aged IPAs.
    And I can only respond to what you write. I simply pointed out clear contradictions in logic. I'd do the same if someone who had little to no appreciation for beer started making comparisons between beer and wine alone and for pairing. From what you wrote you are clearly in no position to make a meaningful judgment here between the two and I agree you should keep it to "drink what you like".

  31. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    I didn't know wine could taste better than beer with this:
    beerloserLI likes this.
  32. RandomBattle

    RandomBattle Aspirant (231) Jun 25, 2010 New York
    Beer Trader

    Whereas I pretty much agree with you. This place recently opened up near me, and I'm kind of intrigued...

    I do find it humorous and ironic that the photo on the site has a burger paired with a beer.
  33. Parrotshake

    Parrotshake Initiate (0) Nov 29, 2008 Australia

    Interesting conversation until it got all pissy. I am the first dude to try to come up with a better beer pairing for a dish that I'm eating than whatever wine is on offer and I find my instincts are generally right but I will admit that when it comes to grilled red meat I'm cool to go with a shiraz or cab sav or whatever.

    Some of y'all who are insistent that beer still wins this category, let us know what you wanna drink with your steak and why it's better instead of arguing over bullshit? And don't say RIS. C'mon man, get real. It's a good pairing with a dirty low down chunk of extremely slow-cooked whatever secondary cut but a hot crispy bloody prime steak? Sure the caramel or roasty notes in beer you can't get from any wine work well superficially but the iron-y, bloody action you get from some red wines is a billion years deep. That said I am extremely willing to be proven wrong.
    bushycook and BeerAssassin like this.
  34. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Flanders Red Ale would work w/ a steak. It has the acidity to cut through the fattiness along w/ balsamic, white peppercorns and earth/funk flavor to compliment it.
    bushycook, Parrotshake and skivtjerry like this.
  35. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    And I used to visit this Belgian bistro all the time back in the 90's that served a nice steak frite. They had wine and I was a bigger fan of wine then probably but I'd always order De Koninck Belgian pale ale w/ it. Wasn't huge, kinda juicy, low bitterness and really again complimented the steak well.
  36. BeerKangaroo

    BeerKangaroo Initiate (0) May 30, 2011 Alaska

    Here ya go and this is straight from the Beer styles under Beer Advocate. I did not come up with this:

    Here's your list that goes with beef:

    Amber Amber/Red Ale
    American Brown Ale
    American Dark Wheat Ale
    American IPA
    American Pale Ale
    American Pale Wheat Ale
    Chile Beer
    Pumpkin Ale
    Rye Beer
    Belgian Pale Ale
    Belgian Strong Pale Ale
    Bier de Champange/Bierre Brut
    Biere de Garde
    Oatmeal Stout
    Winter Warmer
    Scotch Ale / Wee Heavy
    Scottish Gruit / Ancient Herbed Ale
    American Adjunct Lager
    American Amber/Red Lager
    American Pale Lager
    California Common
    Dortmunder Lager
    German Pilsener
    Munich Helles
    Vienna Lager (and that's just regular Sam Adams for ya)
    Japanese Rice Lager

    Here is a list of beers recommended from this website to have with grilled meats

    American Blonde Ale
    American Double IPA
    American Double Stout
    American Porter
    American Stout
    Belgian Strong Dark Ale
    Flanders Oud Bruin
    Flanders Red Ale
    Munich Dunkel Lager
    Baltic Porter
    English Brown Ale
    English Dark Mild Ale
    English Porter
    English Strong Ale
    Foreign / Export Stout
    Altbier (good ol' Long Trail Ale for you East Coasters and an Alaskan Amber for us West Coasters)
    Irish Dry Stout
    Irish Red Ale (and actually grilled meat is the only thing that goes with this according to the website)
    American Double/Imperial Pilsener

    I didn't come up with why these beers on this list, so if you any of you want to argue, don't look at me. By all means, feel free to take that up with the Bros.

    What I know what I like with grilled beef are:

    American Double/Imperial Pilseners
    Irish Red Ales
    American Double IPA's
    Rye Beers
    American IPA's
    beerloserLI likes this.
  37. TruePerception

    TruePerception Defender (630) Aug 30, 2013 California

    A beer for steak? Easy! A while ago I was having Firestone's Double Barrel Ale, and one of the first thoughts I had (aside from noting taste, smell, etc.) was that it would go great with a steak, potato, and green bean dinner!

    Edit: So, barrel-aged English pale ale (per this site, anyway).
    BeerKangaroo likes this.
  38. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    What is it about American Double/Imperial Pilseners, Irish Red Ales, Altbiers, American Double IPA's, Rye Beers and American IPA's that you prefer them w/ meat versus other beer styles? What about these styles make them work for you w/ meat specifically.
  39. TruePerception

    TruePerception Defender (630) Aug 30, 2013 California

    Those are per this site, not his personal opinions.
  40. Chinon01

    Chinon01 Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2007 Pennsylvania

    He wrote at the bottom before listing those beers: "What I know what I like with grilled beef are".
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