From classy to ashy

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by campbellvt, Jan 14, 2019.

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  1. campbellvt

    campbellvt Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2018 Tennessee

    Here's a first, at least for me so I'm curious if any of you other kegging types have EVER had such a ridiculous change in a beer overnight. About a week ago I kegged a fairly simple IPA that tasted great and used a BRY97 dry yeast for the first time so I was even more pleased as I tyically only use liquid. Having kegged over 100 times, I will admit that during transfer the tubing popped up and caused a pretty ridiculous amount of splashing and thus some aeration. Having read several brulosophy exbeeriments on forced aeration after fermentation and beers turned out just fine, at least in the short term, I went with it. I carb bursted and had a few "regulars" over the following evening and it was fantastic, almost reminiscent of the beloved Jai Alai. Lots of tangerine, great hop aroma for one that didn't even receive a dry hop, and great flavor profile. The following day, the aroma was nearly disgusting, comparable to a smell I'm not familiar with, and tasted like metallic, watery shit. While I wanted to laugh, of course, I was slightly pissed and perplexed that something could turn from something so delectable into something so horrid literally in a matter of less than 12 hours. (it also tasted great in the fermenter during taste tests) Even oxidation would typically take a little longer than that to show noticeable effect, but I'm really out of ideas as to "HOW"? In many years, I've made all of the moronic mistakes I think the majority of us can fess up to, this honestly being one of them, but I've never dumped anything that wasn't infected before this and I'm 100% sure it's not an infection as I'm well versed in that area unfortunately. I've aerated accidentally in the past, and everything turned out just fine.

    Has anyone experienced such a rapid degradation in a beer they kegged??? If anything, I'm just curious as to that! Thanks ahead of time for any thoughtful feedback or comparisons.
     
  2. Naugled

    Naugled Savant (940) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Society

    I always notice an off flavor in my beers immediately after kegging. Once the beer sits in the cooler for a few day's (sometimes weeks) it disappears. It's not a horrible flavor, it just seems to lose something between the fermenter and keg. I've never been able to explain it. My theory is it has something to with ribes. I don't know much about ribes other than some papers I've read on it. If you google it you'll find them. I think ribes have something to do with the hops, but most of the papers I've seen are fairly old (and describe flavors that I associate with older hop varieties). I haven't seen any papers that have experimented with the newer varieties available today.

    Metallic doesn't sound good though, but the watery could just be low carbonation.

    Let it condition for a few days in the cooler and then try again. I wouldn't dump just yet.
     
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  3. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Crusader (777) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon

    I'll second @Naugled and say to leave it alone for a week, let it get balanced CO2, anything in suspension can drop out, the flavors can meld. I find that (at home and with commercial beers) the IPA really hits its stride at about 2 weeks after packaging. I've gotten tomato plant and cucumber after kegging, and it goes away with in a few days.
     
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  4. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota
    Deactivated

    You basically force oxidized this beer.

    You want to see/taste oxidation speedily? Leave a glass on the counter and taste it every few hours/overnight. It will discolor and taste horrible.

    You basically took all the o2 in the beer and headspace and used high pressure to force it into the beer.

    Maybe this should be a red flag for the "accuracy" of the bru crew.
     
  5. campbellvt

    campbellvt Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2018 Tennessee

    Agreed that IPAs in particular need to sit in the keg and change quite noticeably, however it's still representing this oddity after roughly 10 days now. Point taken though, I'll let it sit awhile longer before back yard pitching!

    To 'maybe this should be a red flag for the accuracy of the bru crew', I'm not sure if that's a shot at my frequent patrons and myself or what exactly. O2 in the headspace would be purged when using the release multiple times and there wouldn't be any forcing of O2 into 'in the beer' if it was already there, but good point? People that feel the need to be dicks on here really should just keep to themselves, the community as a whole abhors retards. But yes, probably oxidized this beer, agree there.
     
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  6. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (250) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    Did you just get bottle shock? Not sure, but good luck with it. Time hopefully will be your friend.
     
  7. wspscott

    wspscott Savant (910) May 25, 2006 Kentucky

    I think he was knocking brulosophy and their "experiments", not knocking you
     
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  8. campbellvt

    campbellvt Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2018 Tennessee

    Fair enough! I forgot they called themselves that, however have a pretty high amount of respect for all of them. Nothing is gospel in brewing though, that's for sure! Thanks btw.
     
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,566) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Dave, does "bottle shock" occur in kegs as well?

    Cheers!
     
  10. telejunkie

    telejunkie Aspirant (250) Sep 14, 2007 Vermont

    I was spit-balling there Jack...see if it stuck. Winemakers see bottle shock usually because of oxidation to the wine, but wine can recover thanks to tannins and/or sulfites...so guessing a different beast. Still think time and getting off the bottom dregs of the kegs will hopefully help...
     
  11. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota
    Deactivated

    Only after 16 complete purges at 30psi, which very few do.
    http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/bre...rging-transferring-stabilizing-finished-beer/
     
  12. billandsuz

    billandsuz Zealot (503) Sep 1, 2004 New York

    Ahhhhhh. Hold on.


    Shall we?

    Some of not so sure on your methods. And how are you certain this beer has been oxidized? Let's give the man the benefit of 100 kegs of experience without oxidation. Yet. Not everything is a nail. Unless you are a hammer. Sounds like an O2 problem but the cure sounds worse. To me anyway. To a lot of us.
    To retread...

    • There is no evidence commercially supplied CO2 causes oxidation. None. And we know this because 99.9% of keg commercial beer in every single bar in every single state is using commercially available CO2 to dispense the beer. And the beer is not oxidized. So we know that claim is dubious.
    • "16 complete purges at 30 psi" is not something any homebrewer does and we know from actual experience we are not all drinking oxidized beer. Not to mention all the other brewers who are not purging 16 times or whatever. That claim does not pass the sniff test. It is entirely yours alone.
    • A shit-ton (technical term) of formulas with plenty of letters and symbols, some of them Greek even, does not make up for the fact that the chart itself is not accurate. If the numbers are presented incorrectly, or there is no explanation of significant digits, the figure is questionable. Maybe there is a reason? I don't know. This is intended to be a highly technical explanation and the supporting data is a rough draft.
    • The numbers you are providing as evidence would require thousands, tens of thousands of dollars of laboratory testing. Figures are provided to 10 ppb after all. So we can guess that some data, however little, was gathered, by unknown equipment used in an unknown manner and then the data has been extrapolated.
    I'm sorry you are frustrated with this but your frustration can not possibly match mine.

    Cheers.
     
    #12 billandsuz, Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  13. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota
    Deactivated

    Yawn. I don't have the time nor the crayons to explain this to you.
     
  14. billandsuz

    billandsuz Zealot (503) Sep 1, 2004 New York



    If you intend anyone to take your methods and research seriously it should only take a moment to refute any of the questions within my post. This is your business after all. All of the points made are valid.

    Or don't, and your data and methods remain suspect. I suspect BA gets more traffic than your site, and appreciate your tacit acknowledgement for anyone to read. Is it possible your science is flawed?

    Avoid ad-hominem attacks. For one, you can't defend your science. Two, you always end up losing fact based arguments. Personal attacks are the last resort of the defeated pseudo-scientist. Look it up.

    Learn this basic rule already man.

    Cheers.
     
  15. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois

    I guess my question is about your path and how smooth of a transition your beer has getting from point a to point b, and has that changed recently.
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,566) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Did you read and understand post #5 above?

    "People that feel the need to be dicks on here really should just keep to themselves."
     
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  17. campbellvt

    campbellvt Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2018 Tennessee

    Fair question....and honestly for years I've secured food grade vinyl tubing with a hose clamp on the fermenter and run it to the bottom of said keg. It's rudimentary for sure, but I've never had a problem in the past, ever. This particular occasion I was doing some other stuff in the kitchen and heard the very audible splashing noise, looked in and noticed the flow end had coiled up around 8" above the top of the liquid and had a sort of beer fountain effect (which would be cool at a get together but not while racking haha!). Admittedly I just said "eff it" to myself after some recent reads, but will also admit I felt the overwhelming guilt!

    I added a 2 oz keg hop additionn (Amarillo) roughly 6 days ago to this fun batch and it's finally come through enough to at least cut off the very weird aroma it had previously. Thought here is that many beers are salvageable if you can correct the aroma considering 2/3 of taste is retro/orthonasal. I will taste test this again soon as it really could be one of those that really just needed to sit for quite some time in a keg before ready for consumption. I've had others that needed this 'cold conditioning' time (and yes I cold crash for 2 days prior to racking as well) to show their real beauty, but NONE of them tasted/smelled so off before.

    I really appreciate the intelligible feedback from all of the above.
     
  18. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Initiate (0) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois

    I strongly suspect we have your culprit in the coil that was cold creating all of that splashing.
     
  19. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota
    Deactivated

    Pot meet kettle.
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,566) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Ad hominem attacks are inappropriate.
     
  21. Soneast

    Soneast Champion (876) May 9, 2008 Wisconsin

    Abrasive personality. Personal attacks. Is BrewBetty back?
     
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  22. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,964) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    Homebrewing = your home and your beer. The right way to do it is the one that you like.
     
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  23. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Devotee (419) May 2, 2006 Utah

    To get back to the original question, I have experienced a rapid change in a beer. Based on what I know now, that beer was clearly oxidized. It was an IPA with a big hop dose. It went from fantastic to crappy in a very short time, essentially overnight.

    Now that beer was bottled, and its rapid degredation was the reason I started kegging. I decided I could not figure out a way to bottle in a splashless manner, and so I went the kegging route (and have never looked back).

    If I had to guess, I'd say that your beer fountain is responsible for the introduction of oxygen. While it is possible that the beer may condition itself out of its current state (if it isn't oxidized), I wouldn't bet on it. Let us know how it turns out and good luck.

    Cheers!
     
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  24. campbellvt

    campbellvt Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2018 Tennessee

    Agreed and will do!
     
  25. Brewday

    Brewday Initiate (169) Dec 25, 2015 New York

    I wouldn't think some splashing would cause a problem unless your cold crashing before racking to the keg. Only time i lost a batch over night was when i had a keg leak that i think was caused by a splitter that i recently bypassed and switched to a dual guage.
     
  26. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (110) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Oxidation of IPAs was the bane of my brewing existence for a long time. Everything I read about oxidation in brewing texts was related to staling reactions and shelf life - which is very much a thing don't get me wrong - but it doesn't seem to be very well documented that extremely hoppy beers can oxidize like lightning. Over night -gone-to-shit in a blink.

    With a bit of digging a while back I found some research pointing to the heavy isohumulone load contributed by the hops being oxidized into various aldehyde compounds, which contribute a distinct f'ng disgusting flavor to beer. The modern nut job hopping rates we practice today exacerbate this problem. Once glorious hop aroma turns to the sweet, metallic dirty dishwater flavor. I'm no organic chemist but the above is what I gleaned from this paper:

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1979.tb06843.x

    Nowadays I have a different kegging process which is only slightly more work. If no keg hops , I fill up the keg to the absolute brim with sanitizer, push it all out, then hook up transfer tubing from spigot on fermentor to a liquid QD on the liquid out post on the keg. Hook up CO2 to blow off rig, add about 2psi of head pressure, and transfer into the keg. You can also probably get away with just using gravity but I'm a bit ocd about this now... This gently fills from the bottom up in a O2 free environment. No oxidation let downs ever since !
     
  27. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,566) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Did you ever experience "ridiculous change in a beer overnight" as reported by @campbellvt?

    Cheers!
     
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  28. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (110) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Jack, maybe not within say... 12 hours. But noticeable at 24, then fully out the window by day two. I'm thinking of a specific situation: Its my 3rd or 4th time kegging, and first time kegging an IPA. Beer at FG, cold crashed, transferred into non purged keg with hops, lid off, just siphoning in. Headspace purged a few times, beer put on tap. Looking back, this is just a terrible process (I was learning!) but shows the potential for oxidation with this style of beer.

    This would have been a delicate 4 srm NEIPA, tasting amazing out of the fermenter, that turned into disastrous brown dishwater within about 72 hours. Looking back its a terrible process and I was asking for this to happen - but it proves what is possible.

    I think if I had bottled that batch I would have been in much better shape as I would have the re fermentation in the bottle to clean up the O2 a bit. Without the re fermentation aspect of bottling, I think you have to be very, very careful when kegging these styles.
     
  29. billandsuz

    billandsuz Zealot (503) Sep 1, 2004 New York

    I think if you use a good amount of CO2 purged into the empty keg as well as the head space you will sleep better and have vibrant beer too.

    Since you have the gas, consider purging everything. Keg. Carboy. Tubing. Headspace. Anywhere you smell oxygen gets a blast with magic CO2 gas. It is pretty cheap insurance, and it will make a difference. Oxygen is ubiquitous (ponder the importance of that thought for a second...) but it can be dealt with.

    Cheers.
     
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  30. billandsuz

    billandsuz Zealot (503) Sep 1, 2004 New York

    Have a beer and get free advise from someone smarter than you. Yeah! You heard me.

    Will you bother to address these questions without personal attacks? That is is what a scientist does. Are you a scientist or are you a crank? Your choice. BA is not the mountain you want to die on.

    A tenured professor I know once dressed down a young PhD. The comment was along the lines of "Your analysis shows promise but your methods suck."

    Go back to the drawing board. Prove your point. Prove it again. Revise. Rewrite. Swallow your pride, and do it again. In a phrase, tighten your shit. You are making bold claims in an extremely traditional arena. Nobody will give you the time of day if you continue to be a hard headed fool. Nobody will even bother to pay attention once your reputation is sunk. By you none the less. So drop the border line claims that are weak and easily refuted and focus on the best data you have.

    Look, I get it. You are frustrated because you are invested. Now is the time to step it up and get your shit tight. No failures just reevaluation. Are you a scientist invested in breaking new ground or are you a hobbyist? Well?

    And cut the ad-hominem attacks already. That will make you toxic across the board. Forever. Do not think your peers are not aware today or tomorrow.


    Cheers.
     
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  31. thebriansmaude

    thebriansmaude Initiate (110) Dec 16, 2016 Canada (AB)
    Trader

    Oh yes absolutely do now - I was describing my first attempts at this. What I'm certain of now though is that a heavily dry hopped cold side oxidized beer makes itself known in a BIG way. I used the questionable process described above for a few non hop forward beers and didn't notice anything remotely close to that gross n the 6 weeks or so it took to tank them.
     
  32. Arturo2

    Arturo2 Initiate (0) Jan 6, 2019 Oregon
    Deactivated

    I must be lucky. I’ve never had a beer oxidize. And I fill my keg very haphazardly... lid off... gravity fed... whooshing around...
    I do pump lots of CO2 into the keg first. But I only release the pressure one time after it’s sealed. Don’t want to let too much of that hop aroma drift away. Then I’ll release it a second time to lower the PSI when I use the beer gun If I’m filling bottles.

    I would like to force fill the keg like you guys describe some day.
     
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  33. campbellvt

    campbellvt Initiate (0) Sep 29, 2018 Tennessee

    I would also like to force fill, just not entirely sure how. I'm guessing once I have the liquid side attached to the fermenter for keg filling to run down the liquid dip tube, you'd essentially hook up your CO2 line to the bubbler stem, turn on a low pressure as mentioned above, and allow it to move the liquid that way? The only issue there for me would be detaching a coupler and hose line from my 3 way diverter everytime I keg fill and finding a hose diameter that fit over the bubbler stem, which admittedly I'm not really excited about doing right now. (I'm currently tiling my small taproom in my garage right now as well.) I've also done things like Arturo2 for at least 50 different IPAs and never had this problem in the past. Possibly in the end, it's because I used a completely different 2-row base malt (Muntons and usually use Briess or Crisp) and the BRY97 as opposed to WY1056 and I'm smelling a musty European malt body come through that I hate and this really isn't "over" oxidized (but admit there must be some considering the fountain effect I mentioned before.)
     
  34. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (2,065) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    Two words, sounding valve. Also, I'm loving the world series of dice refrence... everyone get butt ass.
     
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  35. riptorn

    riptorn Zealot (532) Apr 26, 2018 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    Three words....baritone or sopralto?
     
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  36. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (2,065) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    That autocorrect gets me every time... spunding valve!
     
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  37. Bryan12345

    Bryan12345 Zealot (523) Mar 17, 2016 Texas

    Title: From Classy to Ashy

    Funny, that’s also the title of my upcoming autobiography...
     
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  38. TheBeerery

    TheBeerery Initiate (0) May 2, 2016 Minnesota
    Deactivated


    So... Ad-hominem attacks are fine when they are from you two though? Makes sense, when its all you got.

    My "science" is all backed up, and cited (of which I have literally NEVER seen you do, I will give Jack that at least). You literally use the same argument over and over, and over, and over. Which is completely invalid, because you refuse to read it. Lets be honest and call a spade a spade, no matter what I cited, you would (loudly) call me out, because of your bias against me. Your posts try to show how wrong I am, but really just shows how immature you are when you just use attacks and zero factual information. I am sure you are trying to bully me into not posting or leaving here as that can be the only take away from your playground antics.

    Never once have I lost my temper like you do in your posts. I imagine you spend a lot of time writing out these long diatribes of how much I anger you, when instead we could actually have had meaningful technical conversations that would have benefited the entire community. Or maybe that was just my hope from one professional to a (questionable) another.

    If I bother you so much, the professional and adult thing to do would be to click the unfollow button. As I will continue to post, because backing down to online bullies is not my deal. But getting out the proper information is.

    So spare yourself a long and hate fueled post towards me, and simply answer the question. Can we interact like professionals? I honestly look forward to a good honest debate with your counterpoints (cited of course). As I always continually search for the best answers.
     
  39. StupidlyBrave

    StupidlyBrave Initiate (74) Jan 2, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Guys and gals: ask yourselves if you adding light or heat to the conversation.

    Cheers
     
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  40. Arturo2

    Arturo2 Initiate (0) Jan 6, 2019 Oregon
    Deactivated

    So I’ve been taking refractometer readings and small tastes from the current ale I’m fermenting and dropping the leftover into a separate cup and leaving it out. It’s been out for two days. Just pulled another small sample this morning and the color difference is striking. This is what oxidation must look like and for sure I’ve never had it happen to an ale in a keg even with my loose kegging practices.
    <IMG>
     
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