Germany German beers' IBUs

Discussion in 'Europe' started by herrburgess, Mar 29, 2013.

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  1. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,291) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    There are many amateur beer aficionados on Beer Advocate that say Prima Pils is out of style. My reply would be for today, yes, but in the 91 timeframe, no. Since you have some good knowledge, what is your opinion on Prima being "out of style". Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Domingo

    Domingo Poo-Bah (2,222) Apr 23, 2005 Colorado
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Absolutely love that beer - easily my favorite pils. The ads around town made it look like some kind of Heineken/Random Euro Pils, but one taste was all I needed to know it was far, far more.
     
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  3. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    I, too, would be grateful to hear Jim's thoughts here. To be honest, though, he pretty much answered the question for me in his post: the smell of a beer like Waldhaus and the character of the Hausbrauerei Vogel are inspirations for Prima Pils. Many Hausbrauereien then -- and now -- serve pils that are, in my view, quite similar to Prima. I would still maintain, however, that Prima is not in the style of beers like Jever or Keesmann, either from 1991 (the first year I traveled to Germany and Bamberg) or now -- even if it took some indirect inspiration therefrom. Just my $0.02 to add to our family infighting Kasse. :wink:
     
  4. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,291) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    My first time in Germany was in 1989. Too bad that my beer drinking palate was not what it is today!
     
  5. PancakeMcWaffles

    PancakeMcWaffles Initiate (0) Jun 15, 2012 Germany

    You know Vogelbräu? I am always surprised at how well known they are, their original brewery/pub (Kapellenstraße, opened in 1985) is 15 minutes away from my house :grinning: Their Pils is incredible, I got to say, probably the best Pils in Baden-Württemberg (or maybe all of Germany? :grinning:).
    They're going to release a bottled IPA at the end of April, their IPA last year was pretty good, but I bet this one's going to be just as good if not better! They may actually be the first Karlsruhe based brewery to release an IPA...
    Last summer they brewed a batch of their Pils with Saaz hops, really loved that one.

    Cheers!
     
  6. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “Their Pils is incredible, I got to say, probably the best Pils in Baden-Württemberg (or maybe all of Germany?” That does indeed sound like a very tasty beer!

    Would you personally describe the Vogel Pils as being "out of style"?

    Prost!
     
  7. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    From the Voglebraue Web site:

    Einst braute jeder Wirt sein eigenes Bier. Individuell und unverwechselbar. Je nach Härtegrad des Wassers, Hopfenbittere und Malzgabe entstanden so typische, lokale Biere. Doch eins war ihnen allen gemeinsam: Sie waren alle unfiltriert, so wie heute die naturtrüben, unverwechselbaren Bier-Spezialitäten vom Vogel Hausbräu.

    Rough translation:

    Once upon a time every innkeeper brewed his own beer. Each one individual and unmistakable. Varying/variable water hardness, hop bitterness, and maltiness all contributed to the appearance/emergence of these typical local brews. Yet they all had one thing in common: they were all unfiltered, just as today's naturally cloudy, unmistakable beer specialties from Vogel Hausbrauerei.

    So, to answer your question, Vogel is brewed in the style of the old Hausbrauereien, and not in the style of any modern (post-1900 or so if I had to estimate) pilsner styles.
     
  8. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter


    Well, I was hoping to hear from PancakeMcWaffles since he is intimately familiar with Vogel Pils but thanks for your translation.

    In the below translated paragraph:

    “Once upon a time every innkeeper brewed his own beer. Each one individual and unmistakable. Varying/variable water hardness, hop bitterness, and maltiness all contributed to the appearance/emergence of these typical local brews. Yet they all had one thing in common: they were all unfiltered, just as today's naturally cloudy, unmistakable beer specialties from Vogel Hausbrauerei.”

    Is the keyword “unfiltered”? Is that what is distinguishing the Vogel Pils? Is the fact that it is unfiltered make it “not in the style of any modern (post-1900 or so if I had to estimate) pilsner styles.”?

    Prost!
     
  9. PancakeMcWaffles

    PancakeMcWaffles Initiate (0) Jun 15, 2012 Germany

    Compared to most "Pilsners" of today (and especially the "Fernsehbiere") it probably is. I can't compare it to Jever because I haven't had many of those yet, but its bitterness is probably best compared to Flensburger Pilsner ( around 40IBU) - but the hop aroma is distinctive! I could actually ask one of the brewers - next time I see one of them - what IBU they aim for and what hops they use, I remember a late addition of Hallertauer Mittelfrüh.
    But hey, why should I compare it to Fernsehbier? Vogelbräu is a bright golden and hoppy brew with a lot of hop aroma. I should get a growler filling this weekend and post a picture of it :rolling_eyes:.
    It's got a hop profile that most of todays "Pilsners" do not have!
    Cheers!
     
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  10. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    I guess I'll have to let Pancake answer that. :wink: All I was trying to communicate is that Prima Pils seems to fit well in this "tradition" -- much better than in the tradition of either the modern Northern or Southern pils (which, yes, tend to be filtered).
     
  11. PancakeMcWaffles

    PancakeMcWaffles Initiate (0) Jun 15, 2012 Germany

    Vogelbräu doesn't filter any of their beers!
    That's probably the most important part of their philosophy :slight_smile:
    I don't think filtering makes a beer a "modern Pils" or that leaving it unfiltered makes it "old-school". What counts (for me) is the taste, and most common Pilsners in Germany do not have a distinctive hop profile or malt profile. It's up to you to call it modern or old school, but Vogel's Pils is a beer with a beautiful aroma, a wonderful golden colour and an incredible head retention :grinning: As far as I know beers were hopped stronger back in the day, but why shouldn't a modern Pils be hoppy?

    Cheers
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “As far as I know beers were hopped stronger back in the day, but why shouldn't a modern Pils be hoppy?” I agree!

    Below is the style guideline for German Pilsners as used at the European Beer Star competition:

    GermanStyle Pilsner
    Colour: light straw up to golden
    Hop bitterness: high
    Hop flavour and aroma: moderate, quite obvious
    Attenuation degree: high
    Body: medium to light
    Flavour and aroma: little residual sweetness
    No fruity esters or Diacetyl
    Dense and rich foam
    Beer is filtered
    No chill haze
    Analytics:
    Original gravity: 11.0 – 12.9 °Plato
    Apparent extract: 1.5 – 3.0 °Plato
    Alcohol: 3.6 – 4.2 % by weight, 4.0 – 5.0 % by volume
    Bitterness: 25 50 IBU

    It would appear that the organizers of the European Beer Star competition would ‘ding’ Vogel Pils since it is unfiltered but being hoppy should be in style.

    I personally do not think that unfiltered beer necessarily ‘defines’ a style but I am not part of the beer style committee.

    Prost!
     
  13. PancakeMcWaffles

    PancakeMcWaffles Initiate (0) Jun 15, 2012 Germany

    Vogelbräu won Bronze at the European Beer Star Award 2012 - German Style Kellerpils
    By their guidelines it's a "Kellerpils", and according to the guidelines the only thing that distinguishes Kellerpils from regular Pils is the "Trübung" (cloudiness), some details (like the descriptions for the colour) are slightly different, but that's not as imporant as the taste (in my opinion). My "definition" for a Kellerpils would simply be an unfiltered Pilsner.

    Cheers
     
  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “My "definition" for a Kellerpils would simply be an unfiltered Pilsner.” I agree 100% with that definition.

    What started this discussion is Victory Prima Pils which is a filtered beer. So, it seems to me that since Victory Prima Pils is filtered then it is brewed to the style of German Pilsner as defined by the organizers of the European Beer Star competition

    Victory does brew a series of unfiltered Pilsners they call Braumeister Pils, they feature different hops such as Hallertau Mittelfruh, Saaz, Tettnang, Sladek, etc. for those beers. The Braumeister Pils beers are very, very good in my opinion. Unfortunately they are draft only and they only sell these draft beers to limited accounts (but they are available at the Victory Brewpub and frequently at the Victory Beer Hall in South Philadelphia). I would guess that the Victory Braumeister Pils beers are similar to the Vogel Pils beers.

    Prost!
     
  15. Starkbier

    Starkbier Initiate (165) Sep 19, 2002 Maryland

    OK here we are back at styles, which I touched on in another thread. Who cares?!!! Well I guess the certified beer judge in me does but thats just required to do standard judging events. We must have rules for competitions, but these rules do not match what happens every day in the real world - evolution. Styles come about because some innovator gets a hit and it sells well enough to be "copied". Just look at whats happened to IPAs, Double IPA and such in only 15 years now in the US.... FWIW a long time ago I know Prima had been tested at 52 IBUs, so back then it was just north of the BJCP limit of 50. Not sure what the latest specs are..... Pretty sure Prima won a silver at the Beerstar awards several years back. Prima is just another example of our own twist on traditional beers, similar and inspired by but in its own way rather unique.

    Whenever I am near Karlshrue, I always hit Vogelbrau - usually the Ettlingen location.

    <Victory Braumeister Pils

    My personal favorite and almost always on tap at my hausbrauerei. Right now its Tettnanger Tettnang. The Spalter version is pretty damn good too.

    Prost!

    Jim
     
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  16. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    Thanks for the reply. Sounds pretty similar to the Vogel description I translated. :wink:

    FWIW, all this talk influenced me on my trip to the bottle shop just now. Picked up a six pack of your Victory Lager, two bottles of which I am enjoying in my Masskrug right now. Very nice stuff -- pretty much my favorite of all of the Victory beers I have tried. Prost!
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Jim,

    Firstly, thanks for your post!

    Your memory is very good: “Victory Prima Pils won the silver medal at the 2007 European Beer Star Competition”.

    I can’t comment for the others but Prima Pils is a very tasty German Pilsner beer as far as I am concerned.

    Cheers!

    Jack
     
  18. WhatANicePub

    WhatANicePub Initiate (182) Jul 1, 2009 United Kingdom (Scotland)

    In the 1870s Pilsner beer was described as comparable in bitterness to English pale ale, which at the time was the bitterest beer in the world. Its distinguishing quality was held to be its "almost medicinal bitter flavour".

    Of course Pilsner should be hoppy. Prima Pils is truer to style than many (most) of the beers advertised on German TV.
     
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  19. Crusader

    Crusader Initiate (196) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    It seems Holsten pilsner has shed one IBU unit since the list was put together, and Oettinger Export has shed two units. So there seems to be a general pattern of lowered IBU levels across both pilsners and Export lagers, albeit slight as in these two cases, perhaps more drastical in others. One rather recent product "innovation" which I find to be encouraging is extra hopped beers, such as Holsten Extra Herb, and if I'm not mistaken Beck's was also in the process of launching a similar beer. More bitterness and hop flavor for those that want a hoppy pilsner, with the beer being clearly branded and sold on its hoppiness and extra bitterness. Holsten Extra Herb has 40IBUs compared to their Pilsner at 28 according to their website.

    In the end this might not prove to be a successful product category, but it's at least a promising concept as an alternative to the breweries' flagship brands being increasingly dumbed down with nowhere to go for the consumer. With consumers diverging in their taste preferences, having a portfolio of a main pilsner brand at 30IBUs, a lower IBU option (like Beck's gold) and a higher hopped alternative might be the best or at least more realistic solution for both the brewer and the consumer.
     
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  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Patrik, I ‘discussed’ the production of more flavorful Pilsners in a past thread where I postulated a fictitious German brewery that I called German Alps Brewing Company:

    “So, if the nationwide German beer consumers truly want quality, non-boring beer and are willing to pay for that quality then it is reasonable (based upon market driven economics) that some company (or companies) will step forward to service this demand. Let’s postulate a beer company called German Alps Brewing Company. They will produce high quality (and consequently more expensive) beers that they will sell and market nationwide. Maybe it would make sense for them to have a German centric portfolio of beer:

    · Contemporary Pilsner
    · Flavorful Pilsner: Pilsner (Herb)
    · Helles (like Augustiner Helles)
    · Hefeweizen
    · Alt (like a Dusseldorf style Alt)
    · Kolsch
    · Schwarzbier
    · Keller Bier
    · Marzen (seasonal)
    · Doppelbock (seasonal)
    · Bock (seasonal)”

    Cheers!
     
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  21. Crusader

    Crusader Initiate (196) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    It was Warsteiner I was thinking of, not Beck's. Their version is called Warsteiner Herb.

    I found a rather interesting article about the beer and Warsteiner in German.

    Basically it says that Warsteiner were the ones to introduce a milder type of pilsner in the 70s and that this move was hugely successful, and that the other big name breweries followed suit and lowered the bitterness units of their beers. With Herb they are going the other way of offering a hoppier more bitter alternative.

    They also say that according to their research they've found that there is a good sized potential market for extra hoppy beers. Their study divided beer drinkers into three categories: 35% were "pils drinkers" who drank nothing but the milder brands, such as Warsteiner, Krombacher or Veltins. 23% favored more hoppy beers. 42% where drinkers who alternated between different beer types and were spontaneous in their choice of beer. So they are going after the "hoppy" drinkers and the alternating drinkers.

    The Warsteiner Herb is meant to be more bitter than Verum, but not as bitter as Jever or Flensburger (which the article puts at 40IBUs, which makes me wonder how bitter it actually is considering the specs from the list in the OP). The article also notes that a beer which beer drinkers associate with hoppiness, namely Beck's, has less bitterness units than Warsteiner (a mild pilsner type) and the Warsteiner people point to this as an example of how Beck's advertising has worked to influence people's perception of the beer as more hoppy.

    The spokesperson for Veltins isn't worried about the competition from the new Warsteiner Herb since according to him the market for very strongly hopped beers is shrinking. They don't see a market for an extra hoppy beer and think that it can only ever hope to be a nische product.

    http://www.derwesten.de/staedte/war...er-bitteres-bier-hat-potenzial-id7701742.html

    http://www.derwesten.de/staedte/war...-variante-experementiert-page2-id7701742.html
     
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  22. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Patrik, thanks for the ‘translation’/summary for those of us that are non-German speakers (i.e., me)!

    “ …23% favored more hoppy beers” That reads like: back to the good old days to me!

    Bring on the Herb!

    Cheers!
     
  23. Bierman9

    Bierman9 Poo-Bah (4,202) Dec 20, 2001 New Hampshire
    Beer Trader

    I had a super Pils years ago (http://www.pax-braeu.de/) and thought it had a shitload of fantastic, German hops.... Gots to try and get back to Düll sometime soon...
    Prosit!
     
  24. patto1ro

    patto1ro Defender (622) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands
    Subscriber

    They wouldn't be allowed to call a beer Kölsch unless they brewed it in Cologne. And I'd like to see any brewery from outside the Rhineland persuade people there to drink their Alt.
     
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  25. PancakeMcWaffles

    PancakeMcWaffles Initiate (0) Jun 15, 2012 Germany

    I kind of dislike how being hoppy seems to be a sign of "quality" or good taste for a Pilsner.
    If you look at the Fernsehbiere, let's use Krombacher, Warsteiner, Bitburger and Radeberger here.
    According to the "stats" (IBU, OG, etc.) they are pretty similar, I think Bitburger has the highest IBUs of them. But all of them share one major thing: Their taste. Despite Bitburger being slightly more bitter than the other 3 the taste (this is my opinion) is quite similar.
    I don't think more bitterness makes a beer more interesting, it's the hop flavour that makes a Pils interesting for me, not the bland bitterness.
    Vogelbräu offers a Pils that has a strong - but not over the top - bitterness combined with fresh hop flavours. Most other German Pilsners (hoppy or not) lack a fresh hop aroma.

    Just my 2 cents!
    Cheers
     
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  26. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “I kind of dislike how being hoppy seems to be a sign of "quality" or good taste for a Pilsner.” The ‘issue’ is that the word “hoppy” can have multiple dimensions. Lots of folks ‘fall back’ to the bitterness aspect since bitterness can be quantified in units of IBUs. A hoppy beer can be moderately bitter but also high(er) in the hoppy dimensions of flavor/aroma. Just like you, I enjoy drinking a Pilsner that has some assertive bitterness to it but the extra hoppy dimensions of flavor/aroma is what I find more appealing. I have not tasted Vogel Pils, but what I like about Prima Pils is that it is hoppy on all dimensions of hoppy: bitterness (somewhere in the 40’s according to my palate), flavor and aroma. The net result is what I classified as a “Flavorful Pilsner: Pilsner (Herb)” for the GABC product lineup.

    Prost!
     
  27. Crusader

    Crusader Initiate (196) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    They do have similarities, but in my opinion the big name German pilsners have corralled around a taste profile which is really tasty. I would make a distinction between what tastes good and what is interesting. The parts which I look for in a German pilsner is a dry malt body, no diacetyl, a marked bitterness and herbal notes from the hops. That to me is a great tasting beer, and I think alot of the big German pilsner brands deliver that. Would the beers taste better if the hop flavor was more intense? In my opinion the taste profile of a German pilsner is unique in it's combination of relatively high bitterness yet not packed with hop flavors. This makes it different from the mildly bitter European lagers (often relatively sweet), and the low-bitterness American lagers (mostly dry). But it also sets them apart from hoppy craft beers. German pilsners thus occupy a flavor profile of their own which is a good thing in my opinion, since the resulting beer is delicious.
     
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  28. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Below is a Q&A that Bill Covaleski (co-owner of Victory Brewing Company) conducted with Philadelphia Weekly.

    Name: Bill Covaleski
    Title: Co-brewmaster & co-founder
    Brewery: Victory Brewing Company
    How many years have you been brewing? 20 years
    What is your favorite beer that you brew? Prima Pils for its balance, full flavor and awesome refreshment.
    What is your favorite beer that you don’t brew? Saison DuPont because it makes Cana de Oveja cheese from DiBruno Bros.—an amazing experience.
    What will be the new trend in brewing/beer? Flavorful, low-alcohol beers. A real challenge to make, but simple to enjoy in quantity.
    New hot ingredient? Really liking sage for what it has done to Saison du BUFF, a collaboration we are doing with Stone and Dogfish Head.
    What's your favorite ingredient? German malt, the soul of Victory beers.
    Anything you refuse to brew/use? Don’t hold your breath for a pumpkin ale from Victory…
    Do you have an epiphany beer? Maybe Waldhaus Pils in Germany in 1987 because I had never experience so much fresh hop flavor before that.
    Or something that made you want to start brewing? Wanting to create exciting beer flavors like I found in Anchor Liberty Ale and other mid-80s discoveries.
    Hardest thing about the job? Saying no to marginal ideas, because I’m a hopeless optimist with only 24 hours in the day, like everyone else.
    Why is Philly such a great area for beer? The hard work of stubborn industry founders such as William Reed, Eddie Friedland, Tom Kehoe, Ron and I who refused to accept that Philly once was the No. 1 Coors Light market in the U.S.
    What makes it special? The Philly audience! They encourage all of us local brewers to experiment more and brew more. Nothing could replace that support!


    Read more: http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/drink/philly-beer-week/Brewer-QA-Getting-to-Know-Your-Brewer-95344939.html#ixzz2PnCoCtzW

    Cheers!
     
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  29. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    mmm... what you're describing is not that bad, bur reality breaks into what I call mediocre, boring & virtually tasteless, a.k.a. Fernsehbiere. If done right, Pils can be immensely satisfying, but sadly, they aren't by the "the big German pilsner brands." They use hop extracts, chemicals that are later filtered out,... and worse. That's why 85.67493% of German beers suck. Sorry, I'd been forced (yes, FORCED) to drink too many Pils last weekend and I got bored after the end of the first glass... all I could think of was why... why... why...? Then I remembered... mediocre and mass products and average common denominators really all mean the same thing. And in the bell curve world, most people fit into one of those three descriptors of boring, and love it.
     
  30. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Tony, don’t forget about the ‘good news’ on the folks who are not in the middle of the bell curve:

    “Their study divided beer drinkers into three categories: 35% were "pils drinkers" who drank nothing but the milder brands, such as Warsteiner, Krombacher or Veltins. 23% favored more hoppy beers. 42% where drinkers who alternated between different beer types and were spontaneous in their choice of beer”

    Hopefully more than Warsteiner and Holsten are paying attention to these study results and there will be choices of Herb!?!

    Cheers!
     
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  31. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    I was staying with the 35% that knew better (from my homebrew examples) but preferred boring anyway. No one mentioned this, but that means at least 65% are OPEN to having more flavor in their beer.
     
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  32. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    Jack: I don't think "herb" means what you might think. The definition of "herb" in German is "(in Bezug auf den Geschmack, Geruch von etwas) keine gefällige Süße besitzend, sondern ein wenig scharf, leicht bitter oder säuerlich" or, in English: "(in relation to taste or smell) possesses no perceptible sweetness, rather is faintly spicy and slightly bitter or acidic." (italics mine).
     
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  33. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “ …but that means at least 65% are OPEN to having more flavor in their beer.” And that is good news! The next step is for German breweries to service that market.

    Cheers!
     
  34. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    I used an on-line translator which gave me herb = “sharp, tangy, having sharp or distinctive smell”.

    So, in my mind I translated herb = hoppy flavor/aroma.

    Needless to say (it is really obvious from my numerous posts) that I think more German breweries producing Pilsners with more herb (hoppy flavor/aroma) is a good thing. More herb please!:slight_smile:

    Prost!

    P.S. I would absolutely love to drink a Waldhaus Pils as it was brewed in 1987. I would be willing to bet that this beer was almost as glorious as an unfiltered Pilsner Urquell.
     
  35. boddhitree

    boddhitree Devotee (482) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    Very true. Herb is the German circumlocution for hoppiness. But don't forget, German's idea of hop flavors is more from German hops, and that means extreme bitterness. A North German Pils may be called herb as a polite way of saying "too bitter for me."
    Herb is NOT hoppy the way the American Craft scene sells it. It doesn't mean citrusy, or any of the IPA hoppiness. It means an extreme bitterness that's almost unbearable if too much.

    But don't forget, the blandification of food happened in most industrialized countries with large mass market products. It happened in England, the USA and only really starting the 80s/90s in Germany. In the US, it started way back in the 50s by industrializing food and beverages, Germany just caught up later, but once they did, their food and drink is just as bland. However, if you know where and what to look for, there are still examples of it where it's gotten actually better, of which Milka chocolate is a good example, or... sorry, can't think of an example in the USA. Beer, unfortunately, has undergone a blandification of the mass market and almost all the smaller brands have followed them down in search of competing for market share, with some in Franken and other pockets being the exception.

    On a side note... which one of you hasn't read my critique of Pax Bräu's Cissy IPA? Except for Jack, who LIKED it, who of you has read what I think a real innovative, German/foreign melding of tastes can be?
     
  36. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    I knew this German law student in Bamberg who studied in Toronto. He once tasked me and my buddy (who I now brew beer with all these years later) with setting up a student baseball team. When we failed in our duties (probably because we were too busy hanging out at Schlenkerla), he scolded us, and called us "sluggers." When we asked him what he meant, he said something like, "You know, a slugger. Someone who just hangs out doing nothing." We told him he probably meant "slacker" (this was in the 90s after all), but he insisted, no, he meant "sluggers." He had heard it used in that way in Toronto, and in his mind that was the correct meaning. We never managed to convince him he was simply wrong...and instead we started using "slugger" instead of "slacker" ourselves. Similarly, I'm now nearly to the point where I'm simply going to agree with what's going on in Jack's mind and start drinking and demanding more "herb" Northern/Southern German-historic hazy pils myself. :wink: Prost!
     
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  37. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,007) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    “…start drinking and demanding more "herb" Northern/Southern German hazy pils myself.”

    That’s the spirit! More herb!:slight_smile:

    Prost!
     
  38. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,016) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    They don't call me "HER(R)B" Burgess for nothin! :wink: Sorry for being a slugger all this time and not jumping on the bandwagon sooner....
     
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  39. Domingo

    Domingo Poo-Bah (2,222) Apr 23, 2005 Colorado
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Yeah, I think I have a limit on noble hop bitterness. Some of those Sam Adams hoppy beers that feature tons of noble hop bitterness and flavors become very rough on my palate. Prima is hoppy, but it's FAR closer to the German dry hoppy flavors I personally enjoy. I don't think it's currently mirroring any beers I've had in Germany, but it certainly seems inspired by a few.
    All that said, like I mentioned earlier with Jever - I don't think I've had any German beers that got into the zone that I start to lose interest. Hoppier variations from the larger breweries seem like a good thing at least as an option. It certainly appears like they're losing IBU's fast, so an option to get the bolder flavors from the past should be welcomed.
    My favorite pilsner beers are brewed in Bavaria anyway. One reason I love Herren pils so much is that it has great hop character and flavor, but also that lovely bready character that's usually only in helles.
     
    JackHorzempa and boddhitree like this.
  40. Gutes_Bier

    Gutes_Bier Disciple (390) Jul 31, 2011 Germany

    So you already know I always read and enjoy (and LIKE!) your critiques, but I just got back from a 2 week whirlwind in the US (more later) where I did not have much internet access. I will get to it when I can. I'm really looking forward to what you have to say about it because your description of it a while back intrigued me.
     
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