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Introducing: Project Extreme Brewing (a Dogfish Head + BeerAdvocate project)

Site Good BA rating, poor Bros rating

Discussion in 'Support & Suggestions' started by DCgolfpro, Jan 22, 2013.

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  1. ChanChan

    ChanChan Devotee (469) Dec 12, 2009 California
    Beer Trader

    These reviews are 10 years old, a lot of the hyped brews and breweries of today weren't even around yet!!
  2. Tballz420

    Tballz420 Meyvn (1,187) Mar 4, 2003 Minnesota

    Definitely correct. I learned how to pick apart beers and ID their flavors from reading more experienced reviewers. But there is a trap in looking too closely at the numerical score. For instance, I just tried heady topper, and while it is a damn fine beer, its not in my top 10, and it might not even be in the top 25 of beers ive tried.

    Some people will disagree with me and consider it the best beer in the world due to their personal preference, and some people will disagree with me because it is ranked as the best beer in the world
    jasonmason likes this.
  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,534) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    Normally I'd agree, and we could pick any other user on the site and start a similar thread, however we're subject to more criticism as founders of the site and the fact that focus is being placed on our reviews/ratings both online and in the mag.
    BigCheese and Bitterbill like this.
  4. UncleJimbo

    UncleJimbo Site Editor (3,411) Sep 11, 2002 Massachusetts
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Jason, please bring some Zombie Dust back for me when you get some. ;-)
  5. UncleJimbo

    UncleJimbo Site Editor (3,411) Sep 11, 2002 Massachusetts
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    There used to be a motto on this site: There are no beer experts, only beer drinkers.
    djl9701, chuckstout, AmitC and 5 others like this.
  6. Tballz420

    Tballz420 Meyvn (1,187) Mar 4, 2003 Minnesota

    I was trying to remember what the quote from the user (I believe it was Johnny P or something like that) that they had printed on the old shirts. Do you remember?
  7. UncleJimbo

    UncleJimbo Site Editor (3,411) Sep 11, 2002 Massachusetts
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    "Beer First, Everything Else Can Wait"
    Tballz420 and jasonmason like this.
  8. HipsterBrewfus

    HipsterBrewfus Initiate (0) Jun 3, 2012 Maryland

    I saw this thread title and thought of Expedition right away. It had a 98 user rating and like a 76 Bros
    DCgolfpro likes this.
  9. jasonmason

    jasonmason Initiate (171) Oct 6, 2004 California

    Ah yeah, and the old pint in hand logo!
    Tballz420 likes this.
  10. SlickRick

    SlickRick Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2005 Georgia

    I find the brothers reviews to be more consistent and correct that others that review here, also the brothers are more matter of fact when it seems like too many review so they can condemn a beer they don't like. If they review good and you review bad, it is more likely that you are wrong.
  11. Dirtinabottle

    Dirtinabottle Devotee (485) Aug 21, 2012 New York
    Beer Trader

    I come here for the good vibes and quality conversation about the beverage we all love so much. Whether or not you listen to the opinions of others or rely solely on your own palate, you usually heard it/read it here first. Its not a coincidence that when I get back from a taster or weekend of new beers, I log into BA and update my ratings and read reviews. Its a small part of the beer drinking experience for me but one I look forward to more and more often.
  12. slim2043

    slim2043 Initiate (0) Jul 23, 2012 Connecticut

    And on the shelf at my bottleshop.
  13. loafinaround

    loafinaround Aspirant (296) Jul 16, 2011 New York

    ha, I just visited the publick house on sat! beer was good. food was too!
  14. Stinkypuss

    Stinkypuss Poo-Bah (4,018) Apr 7, 2008 Pennsylvania

    I had AB Hurricane recently, and thought it was surprisingly decent besides some cardboard dryness.
  15. DCgolfpro

    DCgolfpro Devotee (479) Oct 26, 2011 Maryland
    Beer Trader

  16. Brandywine

    Brandywine Initiate (0) Aug 20, 2012 Washington

    I agree, however I never said that I review a beer solely on the basis of how it stands up to others within its category. I said that I consider it within that context. For me a "world class" beer is one that represents the best of its style as well as representing something (within the world of beer as a whole) that is exceptional.
  17. TheMonkfish

    TheMonkfish Initiate (0) Jan 8, 2012 Chad

    As with all beer drinkers there are different palates and biases towards styles. There's also the factor that the editors are also trying to sell ad space (just like editors/publishers at newspapers/magazines who make copy decisions.) This is not Consumer Reports.
  18. UncleJimbo

    UncleJimbo Site Editor (3,411) Sep 11, 2002 Massachusetts
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Are you saying The Bros. write good reviews to sell more ads in the magazine??
  19. broodog

    broodog Aspirant (222) Jul 18, 2009 Illinois

    I think the brewer's full intention was to use the cheapest ingredients available, get the highest ABV, and market it to people who want to do nothing more than get shitfaced for the least amount of money possible. Just my two cents
  20. bobbanks001

    bobbanks001 Initiate (0) Sep 14, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    Blithering Idiot has a huge gap, 83-65
  21. RaulMondesi

    RaulMondesi Champion (885) Dec 11, 2006 California

    Pabst Blue Ribbon 83 (Bro's) 69 (Not Bro's)
  22. TheMonkfish

    TheMonkfish Initiate (0) Jan 8, 2012 Chad

    Nope, but unless you take a Consumer Reports model of ratings (taking zero advertising dollars) the editorial reviews will always be considered suspect to some users/subscribers. I'm not sure if there are any such "padded" ratings here on the site - I've long since stopped reading the editor ratings (and I only read users narrative ratings to see if any of them have picked up on beer facets that I have - chances are that they have not because I probably imagined them.)

    As, per the OP - much like the site owners, I know that I have some beer ratings that likely are way off from the street - that happens and I suspect that will happen with all aficionados of stuff like beer. Do I think that a horrible "site owners say" rating is indicative of someone who didn't buy a block of space? The answer is "not necessarily, and probably not."

    If it was Consumer Reports then I'd say "No".

    By the way, I think Consumer Reports thinks that DeWalt power tools are way better than they really are. :wink:
  23. UCLABrewN84

    UCLABrewN84 Poo-Bah (12,199) Mar 18, 2010 California

  24. Jason

    Jason Founder (8,113) Aug 23, 1996 Massachusetts
    Staff Subscriber

    Love when BAs integrity is questioned ... LOL.
    JG-90 likes this.
  25. JohnQVD

    JohnQVD Initiate (0) Jan 23, 2011 New York

    Some people just can't handle it when other people don't agree with them.
  26. dortenzio1991

    dortenzio1991 Initiate (172) Aug 12, 2011 Connecticut
    Beer Trader

  27. PeterJ

    PeterJ Initiate (69) Dec 5, 2012 California

    Maybe they were rating it according to the style. A lot of reviews for certain beers are just stupid IMO. I.E. people that don't like sour beers rating them low because they don't like sours. If you cant judge a beer for what it is/supposed to be, maybe you shouldn't bother.
    MusicaleMike likes this.
  28. Ohsaycanyoubeer

    Ohsaycanyoubeer Initiate (0) Feb 8, 2012 Colorado

    Doesn't that have a lot to do with putting your review in big font on the top of each page? No offense, but one doesn't become craft beer's Robert Parker without criticism.
  29. wesbray

    wesbray Disciple (349) Feb 29, 2012 Alberta (Canada)
    Beer Trader

  30. PeterJ

    PeterJ Initiate (69) Dec 5, 2012 California

  31. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,534) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    If you reread my post, I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here ...
  32. Sam_Frank

    Sam_Frank Initiate (0) Nov 29, 2012 California

    couldn't agree more. same goes for restaurant reviews, and why i can't stand Yelp most of the time. i hate when someone goes to a Mexican restaurant and does a review based on Nachos. or people going to meat-centric places but complaining about the lack of vegi options and giving a negative review. gfy
  33. Ohsaycanyoubeer

    Ohsaycanyoubeer Initiate (0) Feb 8, 2012 Colorado

    Absolutely. I was just pointing out a specificity to your generality.... Damn semantics. :slight_smile:
  34. LMT

    LMT Initiate (0) Oct 15, 2009 Virginia

    Smaller sample size with the Bros. vs. everyone else. They're bound to deviate from the average rating quite a bit every now & then.*

    *cue statistician to back me up here
  35. jgluck

    jgluck Initiate (0) Apr 19, 2012 California

    This is a common statistical concept and likely a valid contributing factor. And even when the Bros deviate from the average rating, the most extreme Bros' ratings are generally within one or two standard deviations from the community mean. (I know the math is trickier for skewed underlying distributions, but the general principle still roughly applies.)

    Another consideration is selection bias. Many of the anecdotal examples listed here are being selected from the extreme ends of the Bros' ratings. Out of the 955 beers currently rated by Todd, Todd's rating for Bell's Two Hearted Ale has the 38th most extreme negative deviation from the average community rating. The vast majority of Todd's ratings have minimal deviations from the community means - so what may seem like big discrepancies between BA and the Bros are likely normal outliers due to Todd reviewing many beers.

    Everyone has outliers in their reviews due to a variety of factors - such as old/off beers or subjective, personal influences. In fact, the top 38 of Todd's reviews with abnormally high negative deviations are all > 7 years old. This may or may not be a coincidence. On the other hand, it seems like Todd generally rated Flying Dog offerings lower than the community average. I personally love Raging Bitch (and most things Flying Dog), so there may or may not be a Flying Dog signature quality that polarizes opinions.

    Rather than single out the Bros' -- really, any BA user with 1,000 reviews would make an equally suitable example (and I hope Todd doesn't mind me using his data) -- I think a more fundamental, and interesting, question is:

    Do consensus reviews help converge on an "objective truth" (e.g. the Platonic Ideal, or The Wisdom of Crowds), do they follow flawed group-think, or do they do a bit of both? Better yet, do they help or hurt our beer journey and enjoyment?

    My personal opinion is pretty wishy-washy and boring. Reviews can be a mixed bag - useful, entertaining, educational, and misleading - so they should be valued for what they are and not canonized.

    ...except for Raging Bitch - that beer is unfairly way underrated.
    semaj, LMT and Premo88 like this.
  36. BigCheese

    BigCheese Initiate (0) Jul 4, 2009 Massachusetts

    great post. i love math, gonzo imperial porter, and raging bitch.

    For non math people, across thousands of beers obviously the bros are gonna deviate from the average, all things considered their reviews are closer to the mean than I would expect. I think part of this is due to people reviewing a beer after they have read the bros (and others) review of the beer.

    If I were to review Westy 12 (havent had it) I highly doubt I would give it less than 4 in any category, just because of the precedent/hype.
  37. JG-90

    JG-90 Initiate (0) Nov 29, 2012 New Jersey

    So I am to pay no regard to what you say/review because your opinion is worth nothing in my mind :slight_smile:
  38. Premo88

    Premo88 Meyvn (1,438) Jun 6, 2010 Texas

    Reviews are one-shot views at a beer, and anybody who's tried hard to give a beer an honest shake knows that how a beer scores the first time might be different on a second or third shot. Right?

    Anyway, I pay more attention to the average rating than either the BA or Bros. grades. The Bros.' take is very important to me because, if nothing else, they know more about beer than I'll ever know. And I'll scan through a few reviews from the patrons just as a general gauge.

    Ultimately, though, what matters is what I think. I mean, if I like Bud Light Lime and you don't, so what?
  39. mintjellie

    mintjellie Defender (630) Oct 2, 2005 Ontario (Canada)

    As far as AAL goes, Batch 19 and Schlitz Gusto both get consistently good reviews, though not great ones. And 'Gansett has lots of loyal fans who love the stuff. I understand Grain Belt does as well.
  40. dougfur

    dougfur Initiate (0) Jan 24, 2011 New York

    I think it also has to do with the inconsistant nature of beer, and of your palate. The same beer can taste really different depending on what you just ate, how thirsty you are, etc. And, I think even really good beers have inconsistancies between batches and even bottles. This gets ironed out over time with the public ratings, but there aren't enough bros. to do that!
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