Belgium Heerengeuze - Cantillon and 3 Fonteinen blend

Discussion in 'Europe' started by kappldav123, Apr 19, 2013.

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  1. kappldav123

    kappldav123 Aspirant (214) Dec 19, 2007 Germany
    Beer Trader

    Just saw this:

    Looks like that’s the new anniversary beer from De Heeren van Liedekercke - a blend of Cantillon and 3 Fonteinen Lambik.

    But the price for take away is unbelievable: 200 Euro for 1 bottle and 2 bottles of the other anniversary blend...

  2. woosterbill

    woosterbill Poo-Bah (2,591) Apr 6, 2009 Kentucky
    Beer Trader

    The description is a bit confusing - if it's a 50/50 blend of 3 year old Cantillon and 3F Lambics (i.e., both were brewed in 2008, bottled in 2011), then how is it primed without any young Lambic in the blend? I'm assuming it's the Lou Pepe "Gueuze" method, which should be interesting.

    Here's hoping the high price means it'll be available at De Heeren for years to come. Start saving, ladies and gentlemen!
  3. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I'll be there in 3 weeks...anyone need a mule? If you pay I'll get it and bring it back, and we can share it!
    FUNKPhD likes this.
  4. kappldav123

    kappldav123 Aspirant (214) Dec 19, 2007 Germany
    Beer Trader

    I really wonder why that beer is that expensive. I mean Crianza Helena and Blauw and Roze did cost about 12 Euro when they were first availble. Now that beer costs 10 times that price.
  5. woosterbill

    woosterbill Poo-Bah (2,591) Apr 6, 2009 Kentucky
    Beer Trader

    Look in the mirror. When I went to De Heeren for the first time, three years ago, Crianza was 25 euro to drink, 35 takeaway. Blauw 35/50. One year later Crianza was 50/70, Blauw 90/120. Now they both appear to be 125, no takeaway. With this new beer they're just skipping the ramp-up and making it prohibitively expensive right away.

    In the last few years word has really gotten out, both about high-end Lambic in general and about De Heeren in particular. Their strategy for both preserving their selection and increasing their profits has been the rather logical one of raising prices in response to the intersection rapidly increasing demand and limited, ever-dwindling supply.

    My only complaint is the bundling requirement; the anniversary blend just wasn't that good, so it seems like they're trying to move it artificially rather than dropping the price or waiting to see if it improves.
  6. kappldav123

    kappldav123 Aspirant (214) Dec 19, 2007 Germany
    Beer Trader

    I'm afraid there will be a lot of people willing to pay these prices and De Heeren will make a huge, huge profit. But Armand and Jean wont be happy about this, I guess. I mean they buy cheap lambik from 3 Fonteinen and Cantillon and sell it maybe for more than 10 times the price.
  7. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I guess I'm a little unclear. The breweries seem to be complicit in a lot of this, and it's only good for their reputations. Was this some sort of collaboration, or did De Heeren do it all on their own?I suspect the breweries were involved. If the breweries were that upset, they'd just stop selling to De Heeren and crush them like the cockroach they are.
  8. kappldav123

    kappldav123 Aspirant (214) Dec 19, 2007 Germany
    Beer Trader

    I dont know how much Cantillon and 3 Fonteinen were involved, but probably not in the pricing. And I heard from Belgium, that they are not happy about their beers being sold for such prices.
  9. coreyfmcdonald

    coreyfmcdonald Savant (952) Nov 13, 2008 Georgia
    Beer Trader

    They must have known the prices of their other De Heeren beers before selling this beer to them.
  10. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Exactly. It's no secret.
  11. ShogoKawada

    ShogoKawada Meyvn (1,247) May 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    I mean the markup from cantillon shop to US bar isn't too far off..
    sliverX likes this.
  12. Jeffo

    Jeffo Poo-Bah (2,601) Sep 7, 2008 Netherlands

    Joost bought cheap, cheap lambic from Armand a few years back. Joost brought it to Jean, he blended it and sold it back at a reasonable price. Joost cellared it, priced it and is now selling it.

    Joost knows rich tourists will pay. Line up and buy it people. He should have charged €500 a piece.
  13. Brabander

    Brabander Initiate (0) Oct 10, 2009 Netherlands

    People want to be f*cked Jeff.....That's why i will never visit his place, i do not like to be f*cked....

  14. beerpirates

    beerpirates Defender (664) May 4, 2010 Belgium
    Beer Trader

    Correct !
    And i think most of those tourists Live overseas !!
    belvedere86 and Brabander like this.
  15. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    This stuff can't be much better that the regular/season Cantillon and Drie Fonteinen stuff, right?
  16. beerpirates

    beerpirates Defender (664) May 4, 2010 Belgium
    Beer Trader

    Right ! And like that you support the brewers and NOT the people who dare to ask 10 times the price that they have paid at the brewer
    At the end of the day the pub runs away with a HUGE profit and the brewer stays behind with hi's normal fee
    They probably don't see it but they are destroying the World of craft beer , i've people start thinking like that and keep on buying at such prices then those prices will become " normal "
    And the " normal " beergeek won't have the chance anymore to buy good beer for a good price !
    I know that they both the lambik at 3 F for 5 € a liter ! , yes 5 € a liter !! + the lambik at cantilion ( can't be much more ) , botteling and blending and the label , so lets say max. 20 € a bottle , and they ask 200 € take away ?? Insane !

    My advice ? Buy a good geuze brewed and bottled at 3 F or cantilion , much cheaper , and i'm100% sure that the taste will be as good as that expencive bottle or like the blauw , crianza , blablabla ...
    Keep supporting the brewers ! Not the profitmakers !!!!

    Cheers to Armand ( 3 F ) and cantilion !
    maximum12 and FUNKPhD like this.
  17. stupac2

    stupac2 Disciple (387) Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Wow, so it's 125 Euro to drink a 750 on-premise? That's pretty nuts for something with no reputation. There must not be very much of it.

    I very fundamentally disagree with the idea that they shouldn't charge these prices. If they have a limited supply they may as well charge whatever it'll take for it to hang around. People will pay that, so it's fine for them to charge it. It doesn't make them immoral or anything...
  18. beerpirates

    beerpirates Defender (664) May 4, 2010 Belgium
    Beer Trader

    Say that to the brewer that puts all his hard labor in his beer and put's it aside for years and years , then sells it for 5 € to somebdoy you trust and hi sells it for 200 € without him knowing it !!!

    And i've they are running low on supply then they can do like kulminator , don't sell it anymore to drink or for take away , but sell it at a reasonable price for a horizontal tasting in the pub !

    Don't forget that this is NOT a vintage beer like a millenium or so !

    Beeradvocacy ?????????
  19. stupac2

    stupac2 Disciple (387) Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Once you sell something it's out of your hands. Besides, you don't know that Joost didn't clear this with Jean and Armand ahead of time, my guess is that he did.

    Look, if you're Joost, and you have a couple barrels (so that's a few hundred bottles) of something like this, you KNOW that the beer geeks (maybe mostly foreign, I don't know) are going to be buying it droves. It'll be gone in days, even if you put 1/day limits on it. You want it to last. The only way to do that is to charge a high price, and charging 100 Euro already didn't work great on limited Blauw/Roze sales (shit, I bought 3 while I was there). The only recourse is a very steep price if you want it to hang around.

    And, really, what's wrong with him making money on something like this?
  20. beerpirates

    beerpirates Defender (664) May 4, 2010 Belgium
    Beer Trader

    Yes i do know that !
    And whats wrong ? Well that's very easy to explain , that they run away with all the hard labour from the brewers !
    All ok i've the brewers knew this in advance
    The brewers DIDN'T now what hi's asking for that beer in advance , untill they saw the b
    Website from de heeren today , and i know it from the source !! Yes from 3F !
    And they are realy upset about it
  21. atomeyes

    atomeyes Disciple (372) Jul 13, 2011 Ontario (Canada)
    Beer Trader

    i bought 4 bottles.
    i used one as shampoo.
    i smashed another one against 7 Smurf figurines.
    i am cellaring the third for 30 years and using it as salad dressing.
    and the 4th, i took a sip of and found it to taste like lambic beer.
  22. stupac2

    stupac2 Disciple (387) Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Okay, well then Armand can stop selling stuff to Joost if he doesn't like it. Although I don't really see why he cares. Everything I said above makes perfect sense, Joost was going to have his doors bashed in by hoards of beer geeks, charging a silly price prevents that. Plus he makes more money. Who loses out?
  23. kappldav123

    kappldav123 Aspirant (214) Dec 19, 2007 Germany
    Beer Trader

    If he wants the beer to last long he should only sell it for consumption there and not for take-away and sell it maybe for 30 Euro. He still would make a nice profit with this.
  24. beerpirates

    beerpirates Defender (664) May 4, 2010 Belgium
    Beer Trader


    And i've hi wants to make sure hi has bottles for a long time hi can sell them for tastings at the pub only , or for a horizontal tasting like kulminator dos when they run low on certain bottles ,
    Horizontal tastings organized by the pub ! Then hi has total control !
  25. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Very interesting if this is true. I can't wait to ask Armand and Jean their opinions when I visit next month!
    beerpirates likes this.
  26. kappldav123

    kappldav123 Aspirant (214) Dec 19, 2007 Germany
    Beer Trader

    And not to forget: The price NOW is 200 Euro for take-away. What will the price be if he has only 50 bottles left??
  27. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    FYI, just yesterday De Heeren's website listed the J&J's for 75€ to drink there, and the Crianza for 50€ there. I would have likely paid that to try one of them. What happened?!?

    I guess in the end it's not up to me to hold it against De Heeren for doing this. I simply won't go there and I won't pay those prices. I'm all for letting the market determine pricing, and if people want and are able to pay this price then that's up to them. In fact, I like the idea of exclusive offerings like this, I just wish they didn't gouge so bad on the prices. On a rare, special occasion I'd be willing to pay 50€, 60, or even 70, and drink it on location, just for the experience (people regularly pay this for good wine, right?).

    As for Cantillon and Fonteinen's involvement, I'm having trouble convincing myself that they really have a problem with it. Similar things have been happening for years now, and they don't appear to be in a hurry to stop it...Soleil de Minuit, Spuyten Duyvil, Framboos, various Akkarat exclusives, Blabaer, Blauw, Rose, etc etc etc.
  28. Jeffo

    Jeffo Poo-Bah (2,601) Sep 7, 2008 Netherlands

    Charge whatever he wants. What I dislike is that Joost is basically sticking up his middle finger at Armand and Jean and then laughing at the beer geek, and yet everyone is ready to run over there with vaseline in hand.

    This is a good gueuze. There are lots of good gueuze, exclusive enough for you to post pictures of on the interwebs, that don't come with condesending labels and require you to bite something hard. He should charge a clean grand and slap you on your ass on your way out. The same people would buy it. I just hope Armand and Jean are done with him.


    PS: Armand and Jean are good people. I'm sure they don't want to answer the same question every time someone drops by.
    OtisCampbell, csano, sliverX and 6 others like this.
  29. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I don't doubt this at all, and I don't plan to ask in an accusatory way. Honestly I'm just curious and think it makes for interesting conversation.
  30. stupac2

    stupac2 Disciple (387) Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I just don't see that. I completely fail to see why charging a high price means any of this. Can someone explain that? He has a product that he thinks will be in high demand and is charging a commensurate price. What is wrong with that? Why does it matter?

    If he's wrong then they don't sell and eventually he'll lower the price, if he's right then he makes money and people get what they want at a price they're willing to pay. Who loses out?
  31. Fux

    Fux Devotee (441) Apr 20, 2011 France
    Beer Trader

    I just wonder why so many people are complaining about Joost here. The same thing happens actually very often. I've seen Cantillon bottlles charged for even higher prices in Moeder Lambic for instance, and I've no doubt Jean van Roy knows the prices from the Moeder Lambic, which doesn't prevent him from working with them (and being good friends). I also highly doubt they weren't aware they would be charged for a high price (how could they ignore the prices asked for the previous exclusive blends they brewed for de Heeren?)
    I'm pretty sure, they prefer Joost making money rather than the average guy coming to de Heeren van Liedekercke, buying their blend for 30€ and reselling it on ebay for 300€. Accusing de Heeren to be responsible on killing craft beer is pretty much non sense for me as they have been supporting it for years now and from the time it would not enable to make so much money.
    I'll not buy ten bottles of this because I cannot afford that, maybe I'll buy one once, if it is reported to be worth a try (as Blauw or Helena surely were). Think also that this way, you can be sure all bottles are not bought by a few people but widely spread among lambic lovers. Also it has to be noted that if someone is willing to pay 125€ for a single bottle of beer, that means he's really interested in, so this limited amount of beer doesn't go to Joe Sixpack. And if you want to educate Joe Sixpack to lambics, the price for Cantillon and Drie Fonteinen Geuzes will remain 5€ a bottle...
    200€ is really a high price for a bottle of beer but here the question I ask to myself is rather "Am I really willing to pay that much for a drink?" than "Is Joost a terrorist aiming at killing lambic production?"...
    stupac2 likes this.
  32. mrkrispy

    mrkrispy Initiate (0) Apr 5, 2006 California

    Perhaps they are just raising prices for the Tour de Geuze timeframe?
    tacosandbeer likes this.
  33. 77black_ships

    77black_ships Devotee (440) Dec 4, 2012 Belgium

    In this case the issue is that he used two brewer’s their names (Jean is not happy as well) in order to cash in on their success and hard work. I have no idea why people are defending this?
    Now their names are tied to something they don’t want to be part of.

    & yes the new prices are related with Tour de Geuze.

    This is an entirely unrelated issue to whether or not it is correct or not to sell Geuze @ those prices.
  34. atomeyes

    atomeyes Disciple (372) Jul 13, 2011 Ontario (Canada)
    Beer Trader

    Just posted on twitter:

  35. woosterbill

    woosterbill Poo-Bah (2,591) Apr 6, 2009 Kentucky
    Beer Trader

    I hadn't thought of that side of it, and it does indeed seem to be a calculated move on Joost's part to cash in on the fame of two great blenders who have never willingly collaborated (or even allowed their respective lambics to be blended) in the past.

    I was at least under the impression that Armand doesn't like to deal with Cantillon because of their refusal to join/support HORAL (possibly among other reasons), so I think that the unexpected blending might be just as offensive as the exploitative pricing.

    Plus, if this blending was done in early 2011, wasn't that when 3F was really on the ropes financially after the thermostat incident? I imagine Armand was desperate to sell whatever wort/young Lambic he had left just to avoid bankruptcy, and Joost probably got it for a song. For Joost then to take that to Jean, and then turn around and sell it for unprecedented day-one prices in order to make a windfall largely off of Armand's name and labor...yeah.

    I've never had a problem with De Heeren's pricing in the past, as I think it's only fair for them to want their stock to last and therefore raise prices as supply diminishes. For this brand new, unproven, arguably shady blend to start out at the point where venerable, proven hits like Blauw and Crianza have only just arrived after years and years does rub me the wrong way.
    claaark13 likes this.
  36. Duffman929

    Duffman929 Aspirant (279) Nov 27, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Just posted by Cantillon:

    Regarding to many reactions, on the web or at the brewery about the Lambic blend Cantillon with a Lambic from a colleague brewer, we want to give some explanations.
    We made this blend in January 2011, follow a customer demand.
    The beer was blend and bottled at the brewery.
    The release took place the last few days.
    This week, Cantillon received complaints because of the excessive price asked for a bottle of this Gueuze.
    This fact is not due to us.
    The maximum price for a 75cl Cantillon Gueuze bottle at the brewery is 5,00€. We sold the bottle to our client at the same price level.
    Cantillon is not responsible for the price asked for this beer and doesn't agree with it.
  37. Morningstorm

    Morningstorm Initiate (0) Jun 29, 2011 Netherlands

    I wonder how many people are going to complain at de Heeren with the Toer de Gueuze coming up. I see this unfolding as a PR-disaster for de Heeren. I'll be sure to relate to de Heeren now as being ignorant and abusing other brand names and their reputation.

    Some people will call it smart branding, I'll call it opportunistic and a slap in the face for both brewers.
    DStoked likes this.
  38. DStoked

    DStoked Aspirant (256) Sep 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Sold to De Heeren for 5€, now they're flipping it for 125€. Cat's out of the bag now. Talk about profiteering.
  39. beerpirates

    beerpirates Defender (664) May 4, 2010 Belgium
    Beer Trader

    Like i said !
    I knew this from the brewers themselfes ! And i knew that they were planning to put that on there website ! Now i hope that everybody understands that 3F and cantilion are not happy with what is happening with those insanly high prices at de heeren !
  40. Duffman929

    Duffman929 Aspirant (279) Nov 27, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    If the professional responses by both of these breweries doesn't show why going we should be going directly to them and supporting their efforts--if you have the ability--I don't know what does.
    johnbjaeger, RendoMike and DStoked like this.
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