Hops in Enjoy By 12/26/14

It's funny. No matter how much you and I can point out stuff like this, people will still come back and say "It tastes different because your palate changed in between releases but it's still the same beer." It has me shaking my head. I have no doubt that one's palate changes over time but that's not the ONLY reason (nor the biggest reason, imo) why these beers taste differently from one release to the next. I even showed how 3 different releases have three different, albeit slightly so, hop bills (and those were just the first three I found through Google; I'm sure we could find a dozen more different hop bills) and yet people come back with, "It's the same beer, it's just your palate that changed." WTF?

 

They are using a few varieties from AU and NZ. Those can be hard to find (I had to look up Helga, from AU). The NZ hops are unique, have great aromatic properties, and are organic. There are only ~900 acres of hops grown in NZ, 1200 acres in AU. If they can't get them, the recipe changes.

Edit - for comparison, there are about 30,000 acres grown in WA alone. Citra is a hard to get US hop, there was around 1800 acres planted in 2014.

 

I'm having a 12/26 right now and loving it! Seems a little sweeter perhaps than some previous releases I've had but not in a bad way. I really like this beer, and/but it really is amazing how many great ipas are being brewed right now. I recently had On the Wings of Armageddon and dirt wolf and both of those are exceptional as well. In fact I can't remember the last time I had an average or sub par ipa. Maybe I just like IPAs

 

I agree that the aroma was a bit foul, but I thought it tasted excellent.

 

Greg posted this in another thread:

<<It has been the same recipe to the 99.999%-tile.>>

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/stone-enjoy-by-9-20-14.206891/#post-2733250

 

I count 11 hop varieties in each of the hop bills I posted above. Each hop bill has one different hop than the others. That means it's more like 91%. You go ahead and keep saying it's the same beer every time, though.

 

I wasn't a huge fan of this release. Did seem unusually boozy. Definitely a lot more sweetness. February's release was awesome. But 4.20.14 has been my favorite.

 

I think it's more likely that whatever else you ate/drank that day, what your mood was, whether or not you were with friends or by yourself, etc. has more of an effect on your perception and memory of a specific beer than any palate changes that might occur in the span of 6 months, but I'm no expert. Context has a huge impact on a person's perception and memory of just about everything, so I would think it would be the same, if not more so, when doing something sensory-heavy like evaluating a beer. Out of an 11-14 variety hop bill, I'd be hard pressed to attribute any perceived changes in flavor to a slight variation of 1 or 2 varieties even if I did detect a difference between two batches.

 

I've no doubt those factors have some effect, but I've had every version since 04.01.13 except 04.20.13 (16 different batches). I've had most of them on tap and from a bomber and multiple times. 10 out of 11 hops is 91% the same, but that also means they're almost 10% different when the hops change. And just because they use mostly the same hops in each batch doesn't necessarily mean they use them in the same exact proportion every time.

 

I have had 2 growlers of this so far... The first one was juicy and citrusy through and through., second one was dank, green, and oniony... Same source and everything.. Almost like 2 completely different beers... I liked the first one better... It was rather odd that the second one was so much different... The Simcoe was uber dominant in that one...

 

Maybe we need @StoneGreg to settle this once and for all.

 

If all varieties are used equally, your math works, but my guess is that the variety with the biggest % of the hops bill dwarfs the varieties at the smallest levels (pulling numbers out of the air, say 100 lbs of Cascade vs. 5 lbs of Helga). I think that's how Greg can say the change is miniscule. When you've had a batch both on draft and from a bomber, would you say they tasted identical? If you found any difference at all, that suggests to me non-hop factors are equally influential, if not more so. If you say they tasted identical...

 

The owner is the one saying it's the same to the 99th percentile. The reason people are skeptical about those who claim that there is a major difference from batch to batch is because Stone has been pretty consistent in saying it's essentially the same recipe, only departing from this notion to note that yes, some of the hops they use in dry hopping can be hard to get, forcing them to make small tweaks in the recipe from time to time depending on shortages.

That means that there are only a couple options available to explain what amount to significant differences in peoples' perception of the beer from batch to batch: 1) the slight tweaks and adjustments in the recipe, or 2) the fact that the human palate isn't really capable of precisely comparing how two things taste months apart because of the white noise created by memory, context, mood, surroundings, etc.

Given that the recipe tweaks are done, not to alter the taste of the finished product, but to compensate for raw ingredients shortages, I think it's safe to assume that where new/different hops are introduced, they are done with the intent of keeping the beer as close to what it should be as possible, and that the hops that change from batch to batch make up a small ratio of the overall hop quantity. And personally, I think that's why Greg says things like "It has been the same recipe to the 99.999%-tile.", because while it's not technically the same, they do everything they can to try and make it taste the same.

I just have a hard time believing that so many people's palates are so attuned and their palate memory is so keen that they can detect profound differences between a beer that is mimicked to the best of the ability of one of the largest craft brewers in the country over a span of months at a time.

Personally, I think he already has.

 

I get what you're saying about ratio of hops used and you're probably absolutely right that they're not all used in the same amounts. Still, the hops are not exactly the same every single time. They're just not.

As far as the bottle vs. tap thing, I'm going to go with "not relevant" since I almost always think DIPAs taste better out of the bottle than on tap (and the opposite for regular IPAs).

 

You make good points and basically the same thing I've been saying. Yes, changes in palate can have an effect, and yes, changes in hops can have an effect. I just feel the changes in hops have more of an effect on that change. I'll admit I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Seems like everyone arguing it's exactly the same every batch feel equally strongly the other way around and that's fine, whatever.

For the record, though, I never said I tasted a "major" or "profound" difference in any batch. Maybe others have said it, but I didn't.

 

True, the words "major" and "profound" were mine. But when I see people--not necessarily you, just in general--talk about how one batch is onion/garlic heavy, and one is more tropical, and one is more citrusy, or one is more piney, or one is more dank... those are pretty significant changes in flavor profile to me. It's when I see those changes that I can't help but think the person doing the tasting is a far greater effect on any perceived change in the taste of the beer than the subtle changes in hops and ratios used.

 

could it maybe be that some, or all, of these hops taste different or have different amounts of alpha acids depending on the time of year they are harvested or used? maybe one type of hop was super fresh in one batch and had been drying for a month in another. maybe Simcoe has way more alphas or something else in the springtime instead of the fall.

 

just had a 12.26.14 last night, and I got heavy garlic/onion. Maybe it was the Chasin' Freshies I had before it, that helped make it taste that way? Either way, glad that I had a 4pk of Furious to have after it.

 

I just double checked with Mitch. Last time we tweaked the recipe was September 2013.

Now that I've shared that fact, what will we even have to talk about?

I know that when we believe we experience something...when we feel something and we know deep down that it is true...that all others' comments will not dissuade us in our beliefs. THEY can say what they want, but WE know The Truth. It's what we believe we're experiencing.

See: "Religion" and/or "EBIPA Hop Bill"

Alternatively see: "Being Human"

 

Awesome, I always found it funny when someone would post bashing a certain Enjoy By when they dont take into consideration any other variables first