How is COVID-19 impacting your beer advocacy?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by elNopalero, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. nc41

    nc41 Poo-Bah (2,771) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    It’s irritating. Their message is I’m not afraid I’ll do what I want.... then they go visit their grandparents or whatever. You just created your own positive Covid group that’s affected in many ways. Most stores here are posted no mask no entry no service, and they have the right to call the police, and you’ll be arrested for trespassing.
  2. rgordon

    rgordon Meyvn (1,306) Apr 26, 2012 North Carolina

    That show is excellent and features prominent pioneers of social media platforms.
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  3. distantmantra

    distantmantra Meyvn (1,199) May 23, 2011 Washington

    Many hospitals are also doing rolling furloughs to reduce costs due to massively decreased revenue streams. When I was doing cardiac rehab over the summer (after having open heart surgery which was nearly cancelled in March for fear of strain placed on the system by Covid) the staff I worked with would often be gone for a week or a two a time due to everyone having to take a furlough. I also have a friend who is a pharmacist at the large university hospital in Seattle and she also had to take a furlough over the summer.
  4. nuplastikk

    nuplastikk Initiate (112) Aug 28, 2008 Wisconsin

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  5. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Poo-Bah (1,979) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    This story is something the "but it only affects old people!" crowd should understand.

    You likely really needed open heart surgery...kind of sounds important. But it was nearly canceled due to Covid. You weren't the priority.

    Let me say that heart surgery wasn't a priority.

    Here's another example: Let's say you have an infection that's out of control. Typically you'd receive antibiotics intravenously. Now? They'd potentially send you home with oral antibiotics because they can't give up that hospital bed right now.

    Think I'm making this up and it's not happening in areas of the country right now? Here's my post from another thread...

    Also, from another respected expert in the industry Dr. Jha:

    "Everything -- COVID and non-COVID is affected. So borderline admission for heart failure?

    Person now goes home. Pt with infected leg where you’d prefer IV antibiotics in hospital?

    They go home with oral antibiotics. This is what is happening in hospitals across America right now."

    Oh yeah, industries are making money, just not hospitals. The BioPharm industry is making a KILLING this year, and this will continue well into 2021.
  6. Reidrover

    Reidrover Poo-Bah (4,751) Jan 14, 2003 Oregon

    Hardly selfish and have been masking since March whether mandated of not. Just that the rules seem weird and pretty arbitrary. And not working that well.
    I go to work 4 days a week and go out to my fav brewpubs 2 nights a week. Though because of the rules we are all outside in a freezing tent. With less social distancing then when we were allowed inside. Plus cigarettes' smoke from the guys 20 feet away in another business parking lot . Way to go healthy!
  7. traction

    traction Devotee (466) Dec 4, 2010 Georgia

    Got to love non-essential heart surgery :\

    This was the worry from the start that healthcare systems were going to be overrun. I hope the whole medical industrial complex falls apart over this. I love science, and I love medicine and helping people but if we want to do that we nee to rebuild American healthcare
  8. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Poo-Bah (1,979) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    I liked your post because I agree, a lot needs to be rebuilt.

    But I definitely wouldn't wish the hospitals to be overrun (I mean, they already are in some places).

    Not that I think your post intended that anyways.
  9. elNopalero

    elNopalero Poo-Bah (4,712) Oct 14, 2009 California
    Society Trader

    Hey folks,

    OP here.

    This thread is a year old.

    I’ve been thinking about it in light of the “quarantine anniversary” discussions I’ve started to encounter. I think about mine—that sense I had on what was my last day physically present at work that things were going to shut down, without realizing how soon or sudden, and also what turned out to be my last in-person gathering with friends from all over the country just a week prior, and everyone wondered after the fact if they had run the risk of exposure.

    Even here on BA, I think we can see how the conversation shifted. And here we are a year later, still in it, still dealing with it. Over half a million acknowledged deaths related to it, just in the US.

    Since this is all about the beer I’ll focus on that. I’m glad to see so many California breweries begin to ship. I think that was a lifeline, especially for those which were taproom only prior. I'm honestly clueless how anyone in the service industry is making a go at it right now--without a massive infusion of federal support I still fear we will see the ripple effects of this play out long after the pandemic itself subsides, in all sectors.

    Hang in there, everyone!
  10. Singlefinpin

    Singlefinpin Poo-Bah (1,812) Jul 17, 2018 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    I'm thankful that a year later, many craft breweries are still in business and I am able to give them my business.
    I almost always drink local craft beer as much as possible, brewed 25-200 miles from wherever I am at the moment.
    Even better when I can drink at the brewery and drink outside and give the staff a good tip in person.
  11. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I am thankful for all the places that defy governors orders and don’t mandate masks or follow occupancy laws.
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  12. stairway2heavn

    stairway2heavn Initiate (134) Aug 17, 2017 New Jersey

    Why? Didn't you say you're a nurse, and you wear mask and that's enough etc... so why is a mandate bad? Masks are most effective at preventing you from infecting others (excluding N95s). Would you advocate for not requiring people to have car insurance? Who's going to pay my medical and repair bills if you hit me and aren't particularly well to do? We talking indentured service here? We live in a society and sometimes you have to think of others. You can't smoke indoors, you can't smash asbestos tiles on the curb when you're renovating, you can't dump nuclear waste in your backyard. Mask wearing is literally the smallest thing people can do to help reduce transmission so we can safely go back to bars and breweries (along with getting vaccinated). If you find yourself agreeing with Ted Cruz.... anyway I'm thankful for the people working hard in the service industry and adhering to the rules to help their community. The fact that the government hasn't provided them with proper relief is important but doesn't change the value of distancing and Masks. I've definitely made it more of a point of tipping even on pickups. I don't think pre pandemic I tipped on any beer/food pickup. I've become more appreciative of all these essential workers packing/prepping etc behind the scenes at breweries, who were not nearly so notable on my radar before.
  13. DogbiteWilliams

    DogbiteWilliams Initiate (76) Mar 28, 2015 California

    Great post, S2H. Well said. Refusing to wear masks and angrily opposing mandates is basically sociopathic contempt for the lives of others.
  14. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (3,105) Mar 12, 2009 New York
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    I read that "anti-mask/anti-authority" behavior is in a class of responses certain kinds of people exhibit when experiencing extreme fear.
    #894 cavedave, Mar 4, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  15. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (2,159) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    He has said he's a nurse. There's lots of medical professionals that don't share your view of this crisis. I have a cousin that's a nurse in Tampa and she thinks the whole thing is a load of crap. There are tens of thousands of MDs that have signed petitions calling for an end to this farcical public health charade. Why is it so hard for you to consider that you might be wrong about this? Why don't we have a media system that has subjected any of this unprecedented government reaction to an illness to any scrutiny?

    Agricultural researchers are actively learning that viruses are literally essential to healthy crops, they are the most prevalent microbes in the best crop soils on earth and no one knows what they do. Viruses are still considered an existential threat to crops by mainstream agriculture. This rising tide of scientism, the blind belief that the idea that the majority of scientists insist on at any one time must be Truth, is just the current outbreak of the most dangerous impulse in human society. We are about to see the roll out of the largest mandatory medical intervention in history and people are going to be pressured and possibly forced into receiving an experimental injection that hasn't even received full clearance from our pretty lax regulators. All over a virus that will subside like every other viral outbreak in history without medical intervention.

    But yes, lockdowns are the only thing that works. Just not for Danes or Norwegians apparently
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  16. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (3,105) Mar 12, 2009 New York
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    Look, let's make this simple.

    In the amount of time it took for a vaccine to be produced and distributed (approx. one year) no country developed herd immunity naturally, no country even came close to achieving it, no matter what strategy they used. Fact.

    There is no strategy for herd immunity currently known that can achieve it in one year without disastrous death toll. Fact.

    So, to judge a strategy it must be able to achieve its goal best in a one year time frame. Since herd immunity is not possible in one year, economic impact and sickness/death are the only goals to achieve and compare.

    Since we cannot judge economic impact in real time, but only in retrospect, the only thing we have to judge is sickness/death.

    Therefore the countries that had the most death and sickness over the last year performed worst, and the countries that had the least death and sickness performed best.

    Hopefully this simplifies things so that all the BS that creeps quietly into our thought processes can be put aside for some clear analysis.
  17. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (2,159) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    And using that metric lockdowns accomplished nothing. Comparing the most similar countries we can that took different approaches the ones that chose strict lockdowns did not experience less death. It is indeed pretty simple
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  18. stairway2heavn

    stairway2heavn Initiate (134) Aug 17, 2017 New Jersey

    Well you can't get herd immunity via infection in part because of the nature of coronaviruses. Mild infections may confer no/ minimal immunity. More severe infections may be longer but generally we're talking months. Nor does a prior infection necessarily prevent you being a carrier (though neither does a vaccine). Hence all the precautions (that's ignoring issues with overloading hospitals, which is another issue.). I guess conspiracy appeals throughout modern history, so why not now? If people want to point out how industrial farming and corn subsidies are problematic for the health of the population writ large etc, sure, but horse is out of the barn so for THIS virus, not sure it's immediately relevant. I think what those of us who haven't had income loss can do is support the service industry and push for more immediate relief and lots of long term changes, but I'm unclear how doing say...what Texas is doing is truly doing the right thing for anyone. Seems like essential employees and service industry workers are going to be the ones forced to face the increased threat to their health, not people who can stay home and buy $18/4 packs. Rather they be protected and their industry bailed out/ they individually be provided relief.
  19. HouseofWortship

    HouseofWortship Meyvn (1,393) May 3, 2016 Illinois
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    So what you are saying is we need universal health care too?
  20. Chipotle

    Chipotle Aspirant (204) Apr 23, 2017 New York

    Because the more variants we can encourage with more infections the less effective the vaccines will be. That's so freaking brilliant.
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  21. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Corona viruses generally mutate to be more contagious and less deadly. The goal of the virus is to spread and ideally not kill the host they are living in. The “common cold” is a coronavirus and over a millennia has probably killed millions of people on its way to the sniffles and fever virus that we know today. There is no peer reviewed data that any of these new variants are any more deadly and from what I’ve read they believe the vaccines offer protection from new variants.
  22. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    Yes Dave, you got me. I’m extremely afraid.
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  23. ManBearPat

    ManBearPat Zealot (543) Dec 2, 2014 Colorado

    @unlikelyspiderperson , wouldn’t you be upset if all the ‘sacrifices’ you made over the course of the last year were for effectively nothing and not for the greater good like has been marketed to you?

    There’s nothing more frustrating (for me) than putting a bunch of effort into something only to find out it was a waste of time.

    I have a feeling that that’s a big part of the reason all the armchair epidemiologists in this thread are so butt hurt about you suggesting a reality different than what they have been told to believe. Hopefully this helps to simplify things for you :wink:
    unlikelyspiderperson likes this.
  24. HouseofWortship

    HouseofWortship Meyvn (1,393) May 3, 2016 Illinois
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    Just to be clear, are you an epidemiologist or an armchair epidemiologist?
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  25. grilledsquid

    grilledsquid Zealot (573) Jul 10, 2009 California

    Are you referring to the Koch-sponsored libertarian "Great Barrington Declaration" in regards to the tends of thousands of MDs? Hard not to characterize this statement as simply one on personal freedom above public health and safety.

    As for the Danes and Norwegians, didn't they have the strictest safety measures among the Scandinavian countries, especially when compared to Sweden? Not sure why you bring them up as they're nowhere near analogs to the mess in the US for a number of reasons.
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  26. ManBearPat

    ManBearPat Zealot (543) Dec 2, 2014 Colorado

    As hot as this take is, here’s the actual declaration for the uninitiated:

    The Great Barrington Declaration

    The Great Barrington Declaration – As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection.

    Coming from both the left and right, and around the world, we have devoted our careers to protecting people. Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health. The results (to name a few) include lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings and deteriorating mental health – leading to greater excess mortality in years to come, with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. Keeping students out of school is a grave injustice.

    Keeping these measures in place until a vaccine is available will cause irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed.

    Fortunately, our understanding of the virus is growing. We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza.

    As immunity builds in the population, the risk of infection to all – including the vulnerable – falls. We know that all populations will eventually reach herd immunity – i.e. the point at which the rate of new infections is stable – and that this can be assisted by (but is not dependent upon) a vaccine. Our goal should therefore be to minimize mortality and social harm until we reach herd immunity.

    The most compassionate approach that balances the risks and benefits of reaching herd immunity, is to allow those who are at minimal risk of death to live their lives normally to build up immunity to the virus through natural infection, while better protecting those who are at highest risk. We call this Focused Protection.

    Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals.

    Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity.
  27. elNopalero

    elNopalero Poo-Bah (4,712) Oct 14, 2009 California
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    Huh. I did not see this coming, but I am not surprised.

    I’ll say this—if, after a year and half a million dead in the US, someone still thinks covid is no worse than the flu, masks are a form of oppression rather than a lifesaving courtesy, and the vaccines carry microchips... they’re not likely going to chance their mind from reading any posts on an online forum for beer enthusiasts.

    For the rest of you, how are y’all holding up, and how’s your locals doing? I know some of these questions have spun off into their own threads by now—when do you think you’ll travel again, or attend beer fests? What changes do you think are here to stay?Are cask ales going to come back?

    To return to my original question, after a year I can say two of the main areas where my beer advocacy have been impacted are in terms of public/community involvement (i.e. going out, supporting breweries and beer bars) and in sharing craft beer experiences with other people, whether at home/in homes, or while out and about. BA has filled part of this void, in the virtual sense, and I've spent far more time online than I really ever want to, just counting work alone. Like everyone else, I'll be so glad once all this is over!
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  28. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (2,159) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    Yes, we should have that. It should also focus on providing and/or incentivizing the kind of healthy behavior that preempts and prevents chronic illness. It would save us, as a society, literally trillions of dollars a decade
    That is one of several. Its fine to choose to discredit all of those doctors because of their association with a group that doesn't have a stellar record of public health. I'd hope you would apply that same criteria to doctors who are affiliated with the gates foundation, as they have an unfortunate history of treating marginalized communities in the global south as guinea pigs for their noble pharmacological experiments.

    Because the lockdowns did not prevent excess Danish deaths. @AlcahueteJ posted a link in the other thread a bit ago that does indicate that Norwegians may have actually fared better than earlier data suggested, so that may be an incorrect assertion on my part. However, for the whole of 2020, Danish people do not appear to have saved any lives compared to Swedes despite much more stringent rules.

    According to the CDC its about twice as deadly as the flu, however the risk is intensely concentrated in the over 65 age group. Also, that half a million number is a tremendously sloppy statistic, deaths counted as xovid deaths haven't even required a positive test of any kind, just an assumption. And in addition, any positive test appears to have been grounds to call any death a covid with no accommodation for false positivity rates or confounding factors. Just look at all other respiratory illness deaths in the US this year, covid appears to be killing pretty much all the people who die of respiratory illness every year. No doubt it has taken some additional lives above the norm. But it does not appear that society wide lockdowns are an effective tool to reduce that excess morbidity burden.
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  29. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (2,159) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    Ah, good point. God forbid we acknowledge the systemic sources of our chronic health problems. Let's just double down on the systems that cause those health problems every time there's an acute flare up! After all,
    this hasn't even been a big deal. So let's stick to it! We can beat this chronic health apocalypse together by masking children and mass injection!
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  30. Chipotle

    Chipotle Aspirant (204) Apr 23, 2017 New York

    Covid-19 vaccine effectiveness affected by variants

    There are also indications that variants don't respond as well to the same treatments currently used.
  31. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    I got news for you but none of the treatments we have been using have been that effective. Cough *remdesivir* cough.
  32. Chipotle

    Chipotle Aspirant (204) Apr 23, 2017 New York

  33. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    It is largely irrelevant but I’ll say this—if, after a year and half someone still thinks covid deaths are not exaggerated, masks and lockdowns are a cure all, and the vaccines are approved for anything other than emergency use... they’re not likely going to chance their mind from reading any posts on an online forum for beer enthusiasts.
    #913 Prep8611, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  34. ManBearPat

    ManBearPat Zealot (543) Dec 2, 2014 Colorado

  35. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Poo-Bah (1,979) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    MERS' death rate was about 37% if I recall correctly. It was the least contagious of the Coronaviruses, but clearly deadly.

    The original SARS was also quite deadly, maybe about 10%? And was more contagious than MERS, but not nearly on the level of Covid-19 regarding transmission.

    To be fair, you did say Coronaviruses "generally" don't mutate to be more contagious and less deadly though.

    That's all well and good, but telling people who are at risk that they can participate "if they wish" in the US hasn't really worked out great...they definitely desire to participate, and they have in spades.

    Also, as @cavedave said no country has achieved herd immunity. Look at Africa where the virus is still running rampant because they haven't been able to put precautions in place.

    I believe the increase in US deaths from all causes last year compared to the previous year was the highest it has been since 1918...which was due to the Spanish Flu and World War I.

    Speaking of the flu, if people don't think masks and lockdowns aren't effective at curbing illness, we just had a nearly non-existent flu season. In fact, there's so little flu they're having trouble developing a vaccine for next year, because they use the flu cases from the previous year to develop it.

    This wasn't just observed in the US either.

    Just to be clear, I'm a fan of targeted lockdowns, I think we have a lot to learn in that regard. I think blanketed wide-scale lockdowns, while effective, have other issues that they cause...mental illness and economic issues to name a couple.

    Anecdotal, but my buddy is a nurse as well and said remdesivir worked well.

    Also, what about the Regeneron antibody cocktail?

    How come states like Florida and Texas had to back track and eventually implement restrictions this summer when cases skyrocketed?

    How come Sweden is considering implementing their first lockdown as cases increase?

    In certain areas when the hospitals get full, they're full. This was real in many places. As I said in another thread, did the government/media hire actors to fill them? We had to build and used pop-up hospitals here in MA. That's a fact.

    Moreover, this isn't the first rodeo for Asian countries. They were hit hard by SARS and H1N1 among others. They've been using lockdowns and masks for years, with great success.

    To reiterate, I think targeted measures are MUCH better. Not every state and county has to be in a lockdown. For example I think children should absolutely be back in school. I'm a slave to data and studies, and those have proven transmission in schools is low.

    I'm not an epidemiologist, but I do work in BioPharm and previously have a decade of experience in Virology and Microbiology. Not that I think this really matters at all, this is the internet. I could also be a farmer.

    Note: I'm not a farmer.
  36. Chipotle

    Chipotle Aspirant (204) Apr 23, 2017 New York

    The articles I posted support my posts. Responses just go off in another direction.

    As for nutrition, there’s no doubt in my mind nutrition is a huge factor in one’s susceptibility. (Beer consumption is probably the worse thing I do to my health.) Imagine if the government told people how they should eat and what supplements they should ingest. Can’t even ask some people to wear a mask.
  37. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    “Speaking of the flu, if people don't think masks and lockdowns aren't effective at curbing illness, we just had a nearly non-existent flu season. In fact, there's so little flu they're having trouble developing a vaccine for next year, because they use the flu cases from the previous year to develop it.”

    You mentioned asian countries so despite always wearing masks japan has one of their worst flu seasons in 2019.
    1. Japan, despite its widespread use of face masks, experienced its most recent influenza epidemic with more than 5 million people falling ill just one year ago, in January and February 2019. However, unlike SARS-CoV-2, the influenza virus is easily transmitted by children, too.

  38. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey


    “Anecdotal, but my buddy is a nurse as well and said remdesivir worked well.

    Also, what about the Regeneron antibody cocktail?”

    from that article:
    The study by Spinner and colleagues reported benefit with a 5-day course but, like the study by Wang and colleagues,2reported no benefit with the 10-day course that had been shown to be beneficial in ACTT-1. Thus, there are now 3 RCTs of remdesivir in hospitalized patients with differing results, raising the question of whether the discrepancies are artifacts of study design choices, including patient populations, or whether the drug is less efficacious than hoped.

    Remdesivir does not improve covid
    Mortality and lots of hospitals have stopped using it. I don’t have access to UptoDate for physicians at home but I promise this echoes in eternity.

    Regeron is slightly more promising but is still being studied and not really suitable for anything other than severe disease.

    AlcahueteJ likes this.
  39. Prep8611

    Prep8611 Disciple (300) Aug 22, 2014 New Jersey

    @AlcahueteJ I don’t think flu disappeared because of masks. I think it got overtaken by covid who acted as the alpha virus this viral season. Since anecdotal evidence seems to be okay here then I’ll mention that all my colleagues and I got covid while wearing a level 3 droplet mask. It’s not the end all be all. These virus particles are so small that your cloth mask may as well not exist. An N95 absolutely works but even then not for extended periods that haven’t been properly fit.

    All the other states have essentially done just as well as Florida and Florida didn’t need to stop schools or shut down businesses outside of the initial 2 weeks to bend the curve.
    unlikelyspiderperson likes this.
  40. JHDStein

    JHDStein Initiate (89) Aug 16, 2013 Germany

    I don’t want to stir up another huge debate over lockdowns, because there really isn’t a point. But I do think there is an aspect of the Swedish experience that needs to be considered… Sweden did not impose stringent rules as a matter of law, but that does not mean that they did not actually have a “de facto” lockdown. The Swedish government chose not to legally impose a lockdown; but they did encourage people to socially distance, etc… and they left it to their citizens’ best judgement. And the end result, according to the friends/associates that I know who lived through it, was that the majority of people actually self-isolated and avoided social contact. Maybe my contacts are not a representative sample, but it is something to consider. My basic point is that using Sweden as a comparison may not be terribly useful as a tool to judge the efficiency of lockdowns.
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