How to add Italian pilsners to the database

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by unlikelyspiderperson, Sep 29, 2020.

  1. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,776) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
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    What about beers that were hopped during fermentation? :sunglasses:
     
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  2. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (1,938) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
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    x3 then! Yippee!!! :stuck_out_tongue:
     
  3. bsp77

    bsp77 Poo-Bah (2,332) Apr 27, 2008 Minnesota
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    I feel a "Pilsner - Other" category would work for the Italian Pilsners, New Zealand Pilsners and American Pilsners (like Founders, not Miller Lite). Basically, the modern Pilsners that focus on dry hopping and/or hops that aren't based on noble varieties or other continental Europe varieties.

    My concern though is that people will start wanting to classify a lot of American craft Pilsners as "other" instead of German just for being slightly off style, like Prima Pils for instance.
     
  4. sharpski

    sharpski Meyvn (1,195) Oct 11, 2010 Svalbard & Jan Mayen Islands
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    If an Italian brewer made a Pilsner but chose not to dry-hop it, or dry-hopped it with Citra, how would these beers be classified? Do the answers change if the brewery is in a different country?

    US breweries make beers with German Pilsner recipes (some dry-hopped, some not), and they get classified as German Pilsners on this site. Italian breweries have made beers with German Pilsner recipes, and if conventional wisdom is correct 100% of them are dry-hopped. The brewers in both countries have communicated through ingredient, technique, and usually their own description that the beer is in the German Pilsner style. Why would we change what we call beers that are a take on the German Pilsner style but not actually brewed in Germany?

    Breweries should be free to use whatever terms on their labeling or in their marketing to communicate to the consumer, but I think the notes and reviews are the appropriate places for mentioning this kind of sub-style here on BA. For BJCP or competition guidelines, I don’t think it’s justified yet.
     
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  5. PA-Michigander

    PA-Michigander Meyvn (1,448) Nov 10, 2013 Pennsylvania
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    Have you tried this beer, Jack? Thoughts on it, if so? I've seen it around, but haven't picked any up yet.
     
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  6. bubseymour

    bubseymour Poo-Bah (3,092) Oct 30, 2010 Maryland
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    Doh, that's in my fridge and been drinking that 4 pack over the last week. Just seems like a typical hoppy leaning pilsner IMO, but pretty good none-the-less. I like it better than Sunshine.
     
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  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Yes, I have tried it and a month ago I discussed it in a New Beer Weekend thread - I did a side-by-side tasting with Sunshine Pils:

    [​IMG]

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/new-beer-weekend-6.646103/#post-7011866

    As Trail Day warmed/opened up I picked up diacetyl (buttery flavor) in that beer. I am not a fan of diacetyl so...

    Unlike @bubseymour I much preferred the Sunshine Pils.

    Maybe you should pick up a four-pack and see how your palate responds to this beer? It is for a worthy cause IMO.

    Cheers!
     
  8. purephase

    purephase Initiate (150) Feb 23, 2008 Connecticut
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    This is true, but I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that to be honest, especially given the number of other beers we've seen retrofitted in response to the creation of a new style.

    Maybe this doesn't apply to Prima, but in the case of Pivo, sticklers have criticized the beer for being too hoppy and not true to style for years. I've seen some use the fact that FW didn't label it an Italian pilsner right out of the gate as some kind of huge gotcha for the "style" (which I honestly don't think it is in the slightest), but here's Matt Brynildson talking about the kind of criticism Pivo has received from European brewers:
    I think this also echoes what @Jack_14 said about the reaction of drinkers to Tipopils compared to traditional German pilsners in his experience.
     
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  9. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (1,567) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    I honestly.think that an IPL category or something like Lager - Hoppy Pale could suffice. Lager - American means, to me, the more generic pale lagers that are also.becoming more common but that do not especially emphasize hops. And I don't think that its fair to.let these.heavily aromatically hopped takes on the pilsner slowly overcome the traditional German pilsner in its own style.

    I would find it more useful to see the modern hopped pilsners paired up with the ipls in their own place for heavily hopped and modern aromatic hop centric pale lagers.

    The beer that initiated this OP was very good. I will likely go get another crowler. But it didn't have, what I understand to be, classic pilsner qualities. It would be a bad attempt at.German pilsner in my book, but it was a very.tasty beer and definitely scratched the IPL itch.
     
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  10. Domingo

    Domingo Poo-Bah (2,692) Apr 23, 2005 Colorado
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    Oh lord, please don't. If someone orders a Pilsner in Italy, there's a 99% chance they aren't going to get a beer that tastes anything like Tipopils and especially not like the examples we have in the US. Pilsner already existed in Italy for many, many years before Tipo (and the 2-3 others).
    It's no different than some brewery in Juarez making a double dry hopped doppelbock and Canadians suddenly want to copy it and call it a Mexican style lager.
    This is our chance to avoid another beer name we'll all eye-roll in a few years.
    I don't care what you call it (I like "Pilsners - Other" personally), but lose the ridiculous Italian naming convention.
     
  11. MrOH

    MrOH Meyvn (1,286) Jul 5, 2010 Maryland

    I think brut IPAs were great in concept but the execution of most was dismal. The US was also probably the wrong market for them. I could seem them being big in Japan.
     
  12. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,927) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
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    Concur. I had maybe one that I thought "ok this is on the track with what I expect from this 'style'" and would have tried again. Most were just turrible.
     
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  13. HorseheadsHophead

    HorseheadsHophead Poo-Bah (2,221) Sep 15, 2014 New York
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    I have no issue with adding new beer styles to BA if the beer is different enough to warrant a new classification--however, nothing about "Italian pilsner" convinces me that it's a new style of pilsner. It's a dry hopped German style pilsner. Tipopils influenced Pivo, Pivo influences a bunch of other dry hopped American pils, and yet nobody would have recognized "Italian pilsner" as a distinct thing if new breweries hadn't started naming their dry hopped pilsners as such.
     
  14. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,830) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    Jack, I meant to get back to you on that beer, but I would bet that you got a bad batch. I've gone through a couple 4 packs already and they have been really vibrant and lacking any diacetyl presence.

    I don't recall the canning date now, but I did check while I was in the store and my date didn't match the one you posted back then.
     
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  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    In a couple of weeks I will be discussing Oxbow Luppolo in NBW (formerly NBS). Stay tuned.

    Cheers!
     
  16. jonphisher

    jonphisher Disciple (347) Aug 9, 2015 New Jersey
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    this thread prompted me to get a four pack too but it was 15$ :astonished:

    I enjoyed it but didn’t review it, given the price it is a one time purchase. Looking forwards to your post this weekend see if I had the same reaction.
     
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  17. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,927) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
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    Tag me. (although Ill probably see it anyway).

    I'll be curious to hear your thoughts.
    Is it available in NJ?
     
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  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Yup, this beer is not cheap.
    I will not be discussing it this weekend; this weekend I will be discussing an Oktoberfest beer.

    Look for it the following week.

    Cheers!
     
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  19. jonphisher

    jonphisher Disciple (347) Aug 9, 2015 New Jersey
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    Yes @FBarber it is we’ve been getting oxbow for a while now. Maybe year or so...don’t really remember when they started popping up.
     
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  20. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (3,927) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
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    Thanks. We get a handful of their 500ml bottles here in Chicago, but no cans. I'll have to look for it when I'm next back in Jersey visiting family.
     
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  21. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,830) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    Maybe the best way to approach this is to have a separate Pilsner catch all category for not only dry hopped versions, but foeder aged, flavored, and/or some combination of all three. You know it's happening :wink:. Modern Pilsners would be my suggestion, this way it's not tied into any tradition.
     
  22. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (1,567) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    This could encompass the IPL problem as well. Lager - modern, hopped or some.such
     
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  23. mambossa

    mambossa Aspirant (249) Jun 30, 2015 Ohio

    Please don’t add Italian pilsner as a legitimate style... Just don’t. :expressionless:
     
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  24. VoxRationis

    VoxRationis Poo-Bah (2,466) Dec 11, 2016 New York
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    Italian pilsner does not seem to be a legitimately new style, more like a modification of an existing style already on the site through dry hopping.
     
  25. Jack_14

    Jack_14 Initiate (82) Nov 2, 2019 Italy
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    Very clear, perfect.
    Maybe, but just maybe ... BJCP Judge Derek Walsh's motives were a little more explanatory, but these are certainly interesting too.
    If, as a humble drinker, if you ask me ...
    It is that differentiation in the database is of relative importance ...
    However, I would like to say that, at least here where before the world of craft beer with all its innovative facets entered the scene quite energetically (thankfully!), People have been accustomed for generations to the classic style of the Pils, the Lager and little else other than an industrial product, at the request of a Pils he was served a Tipopils or a 40 50 40 (Birrificio Rurale) or a Best Pils in town (Birrificio I Peuceti) or a Nova Pils (Birrificio Birranova) ... surely they would ask for information about it (if not even the accusation of having served the wrong beer would start ...).
    The same goes for our publicans.
    If, for example, you have planned to allocate only one tap way for the Pils style, you know that whoever asks you for a Pils expects something different from an Italian Pils.
    The Italian Pils, here must be explained because it has organoleptic characteristics (or more vulgarly ... the taste that remains) which for those who have always been used to classic Pils are immediately recognizable as "different".
    Therefore, if I can agree that there are not all those distinctive elements of a "separate beer style", I am equally sure that the distinction between classic style and Italian Pils should be explained to the average consumer to make him aware of the product. about to consume.
    And if you tell me ... "I don't distinguish these organoleptic differences", besides don't believe it, it's personal taste that makes us see things differently.
    Sorry for the usual papyrus, occupational hazard.
    And sorry if there is any "linguistic imperfection", I helped myself with the translator.
    Sláinte !
    Cheers !
     
  26. jonphisher

    jonphisher Disciple (347) Aug 9, 2015 New Jersey
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    I know this thread seems to have moved on but wanted to post because part of me feels “italian pilsner” is more marketing than anything else. Only posting now because yesterday my favorite local place freshly canned their dry hopped German pilsner which they’ve brewed for years. It’s dry hopped with saaz, so it fits the criteria of old world dry hop to be called “italian”, correct? And yet they’ve never called it that.

    I did have lupollo recently, very tasty beer BTW, but even they put “italian style” in quotations. I’m not sure why but it seems like they’re implying what has already been decided and discussed here.
     
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  27. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I agree 100% with you there. It seems like in today's very competitive craft beer scene that brewery's are looking for every 'angle' they can exploit from a marketing perspective.
    Kudos to your favorite local place for not using 'marketing-speak' in branding this beer.

    Cheers!
     
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  28. beer_beer

    beer_beer Disciple (386) Feb 13, 2018 Finland
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    Interesting to see where this is going. 1996 is quite old in today's beer scene, so if the dry-hopped aromatic lagers/pilsners are going to get a style name, it may very well be Italian. But if so it will be a process when people finally will give in to the pressure of the necessity to get a new labeling, mainly through that the concept "Italian pilsner" simply will be well spread an established.

    The traditional lagers/pilsners are kind of conservative, so wouldn't be surprised if we we have an Italian pilsner category/style in 5-10 years.
     
    #68 beer_beer, Oct 11, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  29. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    And lagers that were dry hopped in 1896 are even older than that.

    Cheers!
     
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  30. beer_beer

    beer_beer Disciple (386) Feb 13, 2018 Finland
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    Yes, but they apparently didn't get a separate name. IF there will be a new style name for this, is there any other older than 1996 candidate? The lagers appear to have been forgotten about during the craft revolution.

    It's often not about what is first, but what appears to be first. If brewers worldvide find "Italian pilsner" to be convenient to use and it spreads widely, then it will win in the end. Could we give it 50% probability? :slight_smile:
     
    #70 beer_beer, Oct 11, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  31. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (1,567) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    This is what I foresee happening. Brewers will latch on to the term and begin to brew more extreme versions and we will reach a point where a beer that says "Italian pilsner" on it will scarcely resemble a pilsner. The beer that inspired the OP used only old world hops but drinks to much more like what know as an IPL than any traditional pils, and I think that is what the term Italian pilsner will come to represent
     
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  32. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Or maybe a 25% probability?

    Cheers!
     
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  33. TrojanRB

    TrojanRB Poo-Bah (1,574) Jul 27, 2013 California
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    Please, no.
     
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  34. beer_beer

    beer_beer Disciple (386) Feb 13, 2018 Finland
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    You wish :grin:
     
  35. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    [​IMG]
     
  36. zid

    zid Meyvn (1,222) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    Not sure what you mean by alcohol content increase.
    Just keep in mind that there isn't homogeny within Pilsners outside of the so-called Italian type. Someone might find Tipopils to be quite different from some German Pils, but likewise, one Czech Pilsner can be quite different from another Czech Pilsner, ditto for German Pils, and so on.

    I am curious about how much the marketing or concept of 'Italian Pilsner" has become successful in Italy today. I am happy to see your posts here. I looked into the beers you've been mentioning. A couple have been branded as "Italian Pils" (such as Nova and 40-50-40) - which (due to the language) seems like it could be a reference to the mentions of "Italian Pilsner" on American websites rather than a direct connection to Tipopils. A couple of the other beers have been branded as "West Coast Pils" (Best Pils in Town and American Magut). Drinkers in America would view something called a "West Coast Pils" as something different from an "Italian Pilsner."

    Interestingly, Lambrate calls the regular Magut a "German Pilsner" and their American Magut an American hopped "West Coast Pils."

    Any insight you have on how the scene in Italy is taking hold of this idea would be appreciated. Apologies if any of my post is difficult to understand due to the language barrier.
     
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  37. Jack_14

    Jack_14 Initiate (82) Nov 2, 2019 Italy
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    The first to apologize for the language barrier is me.
    So sorry if I don't master the language, but I help myself with translators.
    I apologize in advance for any linguistic imperfections.

    So, being that of Pils (Czech or German and with the relative differences between them) a style identified as "historical" it is obvious that it has brought with it characteristics of density, alcohol content, IBU that have consolidated over the centuries reflecting themselves in very precise organoleptic parameters (more precise than other "more open" styles - see the IGA)

    The Italian Pils deviate from all this and the "little game" of placing each beer in a rigid category scheme is, in my view, a stretch in this case.
    I believe that this concept applies above all to those who grew up drinking "historical Pils" ... they would surely instantly notice the difference at the first sip between a Bohemian or German Pils and an Italian Pils (even if without going into detail about the difference in the procedure productive, also different).

    There is no doubt about the fact that there are differences (minimal, if compared to how far an Italian Pils differs from these) between the German Pils themselves and between the Bohemian Pils themselves, there is no doubt about this ... that the characteristics of the water are different and here the final products are inevitably affected.

    Magut itself (not the American Magut which does not use noble hops from Continental Europe), brewed by Birrificio Lambrate, may be labeled as "German Pils", but I assure you that drinking it clearly shows the fact that it is a "reinterpretation" of the style ... It is a Pils that is inspired by a German Pils, but compared to these I would even approach it more to a Bohemian Pils (but these are tastes ... everyone has their own).
    As for the "Best Pils in Town" (brewed by Birrificio I Peuceti), it is actually an Italian Pils: dry hopping makes it VERY different in terms of taste. It also has a more robust body than the classic styles, as well as a more astringent than dry bitterness compared to the "starting" styles.

    Therefore ... with all respect for those who say "I at home I'm brewing both German Pils and Pils with the Italian method and they are the same or very similar" or for those who say "I tasted first a German and then an Italian and they are the same or similar ", I believe that every gustatory sensation must be respected, but in this case the word of those who have produced / drunk the Classic Pils for generations counts more... And I'm sure they would find organoleptic differences between their Pils and the Italian ones.
    Especially in terms of taste.

    I hope to be a serious candidate for the longest post of the year!
    Sorry for that too!

    Sláinte !
    Cheers !
     
  38. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    Magut is detailed on the Untapped website:

    “Magut

    Birrificio Lambrate

    Pilsner - German

    5% ABV

    30 IBU

    German Pilsner dal colore oro brillante. Presenta al naso note luppolate che ricordano il fieno e l’erba appena tagliata.In bocca risalta un perfetto equilibrio tra il delicato gusto di malto e l’elegante amaro del luppolo. Il corpo esile ed il basso tenore alcolico rendono questa birra piacevolmente beverina. Il nome deriva dal termine Lombardo “Magut”, sinonimo di aiuto muratore di origine nobile; nasce infatti dalla Veneranda Fabbrica del Duomo di Milano.

    ***

    A bright, gold German Pilsner. On the nose, there are hoppy notes that bring to mind hay and freshly cut grass. On the palate, there is a perfect balance between the delicate taste of malt and the elegant bitterness of the hops. The light body and low alcohol level make this beer pleasantly drinkable.

    The name comes from the Lombardy dialect word “Magut”, meaning stonemason's assistant. The word was first cointed by the Veneranda Fabbrica del Duomo di Milano, the builders of Milan Cathedral.”

    So, despite the dry hopping (or other process details) the brewery clearly brands this beer as being a German Pilsner.

    Cheers!

    P.S. And German breweries have been dry hopping their beers (including Pilsners) for generations:

    “German breweries that dry hops their Pilsners/Lagers

    “Kopp wrote via email that members of traditional family breweries acknowledge their ancestors were familiar with the technique. In some cases, those breweries are making dry-hopped lagers today. Ruperti Pils from Brauerei Wieninger in upper Bavaria is an example of one.”

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/brewers-perspective-the-origins-and-elements-of-tipopils.645790/page-2#post-70575
     
    #78 JackHorzempa, Oct 25, 2020 at 6:23 PM
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020 at 6:32 PM
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  39. unlikelyspiderperson

    unlikelyspiderperson Poo-Bah (1,567) Mar 12, 2013 California
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    I don't want to start a whole new thread and this is the kind of thing that inspired this one, but I'm drinking a beer now (labeled a "mosaic lager") that is certainly the best heavily hopped lager I've ever had. No question. It's an American lager per this site and it is an absolute hop assault.

    I guess my question is, are we just accepting that " Lager - American" means heavily hopped lager? Are we ultimately going to port some super modern hoppy (possibly branded as "Italian pilsners") pilsners over to this category? It just seems like there is a style developing that has been called IPL before but is essentially a light lager that has a major emphasis on modern aroma hops and it doesn't fit well in the current database.

    Is lager - American its home?

    Edit to add: this is why this is a question to me, here's the BA description of " Lager - American" ;
     
    #79 unlikelyspiderperson, Oct 30, 2020 at 7:34 AM
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020 at 7:40 AM
  40. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,696) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    I personally would place that beer in the Lager - India Pale Lager (IPL) category vs. Lager – American if those were the two choices.

    Cheers!

    P.S. In a prior version of BA beer styles there was a category of American Pale Lager. If that was still available as a choice I would place this heavily hopped Mosaic Lager there.
     
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