I'm Scott Burgess, Founder of Bierkeller Columbia. Beer Me Anything!

Discussion in 'Beer Me Anything' started by herrburgess, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,390) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    Scott has been a great resource for my travels.
     
  2. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (100) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    There are so few Dunkels available anywhere in the US it is hard to answer this! I have a nephew passing through Denver on a road trip soon so I'm hoping he can grab the Dunkels from both Bierstadt and Prost. I like the von Trapp. The best and most interesting one I've had recently is the Jack's Abby "Dawn of the Dunkel" brewed in collaboration with Weyermann with a recipe from Horst Dornbusch. Open fermented, includes some rauch malt, 30 IBUs:
    https://jacksabby.com/blog/2018/03/blager-story-part-4-dawn-of-the-dunkel-a-historical-brew/

    [​IMG]
     
  3. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Champion (872) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Damnit, how did I miss that!? I assume I did since the snow would indicate a winter release.

    I really like their Red Tape Lager (Munich Dunkel).
     
  4. ATL6245

    ATL6245 Initiate (60) Aug 16, 2018 Georgia

    Makes sense. Glad to hear you demand a quality product! Thanks!
     
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  5. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (100) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I was at Jack's Abby on Saturday and finally had the Red Tape Lager, which I had previously ignored because I invariably dislike any "red" beer and hadn't even noticed this was really a Dunkel. I enjoyed it.

    I am revisiting this thread because in the Jan/Feb 2019 issue of Brew Your Own magazine there is an excerpt from the new book Dark Lagers: History, Mystery, Brewing Techniques, Recipes by Thomas Kraus-Weyermann and Horst Dornbusch. Looks like Kraus-Weyermann and Dornbusch did collaboration beers with a whole bunch of New England breweries (including Tributary, Sam Adams, Mayflower, Wormtown, Schilling and Jack's Abby) to test the recipes in the book (see the list below--I believe the above-mentioned Dawn of the Dunkel is #39: "Late-Renaissance Bavarian Dunkel.") This may be the largest collection of Franconian beer recipes ever published in one place. I've ordered a copy. I'm really looking forward to reading this.

    Chapter 7: RECIPES — Part 1: “Classic” Dark Lagers
    Recipe 1: Bavarian/Munich Dunkel I
    Recipe 2: Bavarian/Munich Dunkel II
    Recipe 3: Bavarian/Franconian Dunkel Landbier
    Recipe 4: Tmavý Ležák
    Recipe 5: Bavarian Schwarzbier I
    Recipe 6: Bavarian Schwarzbier II
    Recipe 7: Bamberger Hofbräu® Schwarzbier
    Recipe 8: Thuringian Schwarzbier
    Recipe 9: Bavarian Dunkelbockbier
    Recipe 10 : Bavarian Dunkeldoppelbock I
    Recipe 11: Bavarian Dunkeldoppelbock II
    Recipe 12: Bamberger Hofbräu® Exquisator Dunkeldoppelbock
    Recipe 13: Bamberger Rauchbier
    Recipe 14: Bavarian Dunkelkellerbier
    Recipe 15: German Porter
    Recipe 16: Baltic Porter

    Chapter 8: RECIPES — Part 2: “Innovative” Dark Lagers
    Recipe 17: Bavarian/Franconian Dry Dunkel
    Recipe 18: Bavarian/Franconian Dessert Dunkel
    Recipe 19: Dark “Negra” Vienna Lager
    Recipe 20: Barke® Dunkel Vienna Lager
    Recipe 21: Dunkel Märzen
    Recipe 22: Dark Farmhouse Lager
    Recipe 23: Birra Rossa
    Recipe 24: Session Dunkel
    Recipe 25: Barke® Sinamar® Dunkel
    Recipe 26: “Schlotfegerla” Bamberger Rauchbier
    Recipe 27: Estonian Baltic Porter
    Recipe 28: Dunkelrauchdoppelbock

    Chapter 9: RECIPES — Part 3: “Experimental” Dark Lagers
    Recipe 29: Black “ator-type” Triplebock
    Recipe 30: Imperial Five-Grain “Dinkel-Dunkel”
    Recipe 31: Dark Lager with Roasted Barley, Cacao Powder, and Vanilla Extract
    Recipe 32: Black Coffee Lager
    Recipe 33: Smoked Barley-and-Wheat Strong Lager
    Recipe 34: Imperial Barrique Rauchbock
    Recipe 35: Imperial Oatmeal Schwarzbier
    Recipe 36: Sour-Wort Dunkel Lager
    Recipe 37: Dark, Sour Montmorency Cherry Lager
    Recipe 38: California “Un-Common”
    Recipe 39: Late-Renaissance Bavarian Dunkel
    Recipe 40: “Hildegard von Bingen” Heirloom Beer
    Recipe 41: American Imperial Hoppy Dunkel
     
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  6. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

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  7. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (100) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Yeah, I know. But I'm wiling to give it a shot despite his track record.
     
  8. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Your $30 to drop. I've just seen too many contradictions by and about him to keep me from spending money on him. Maybe you can lend me your copy? :grin:

    Weyermann could save the publication, but who knows how much influence Dornbusch might have. Be nice to see an excerpt of some of the history.

    30 bucks for a small paperback? Whew.
     
    #88 steveh, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  9. Witherby

    Witherby Initiate (100) Jan 5, 2011 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I have few hobbies. Buying homebrewing books is cheap compared to golf.

    For an excerpt, start your free trial to BYO and you can read one for free:
    https://byo.com/article/the-mysteries-of-dark-lagers/

    And look at the whole table of contents in the book description. Seems more than worth the risk for me, especially given how little there is out there written about Franconian beer:
    https://my.mbaa.com/ItemDetail?iProductCode=72680
     
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  10. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,441) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    As we're talking about dark beers maybe Scott can weigh in on using roasted malts in Dunkels and Schwarzbiers, which recently came up in a homebrewing thread.

    I personally have never used roasted malts in either style. I utilize very dark crystal malt that seems to do the job (Best Malz Caramel Munich III @ 91.4 SRM is a great example), although I was thinking of switching to something a little more aggressive for my schwarzbier.
     
  11. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    While I agree, I just wish it wasn't Dornbusch. I have the Classic Beer Styles Series book on Bavarian Helles because there are so few books on that style too. Bought it many years ago and questioned some of the content based on my own trips to Germany. Then I started hearing stories about Dornbusch... the author of this book too.

    After you read the book you'll have to share your thoughts.
     
  12. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Direct from BJCP:
    8A. Munich Dunkel:
    Flavor:
    [...]Burnt or bitter flavors from roasted malts are inappropriate, as are pronounced caramel flavors from crystal malt. [...]

    Characteristic Ingredients: German Munich malt and/or Pilsner malts for the base, supplemented by a judicious use of roasted malts (such as Carafa types) for the dark color and subtle roast flavors. Huskless dark roasted malts can add roast flavors without burnt flavors. German hop varieties and clean German lager yeasts are traditional.

    There was some discussion a while back where many members said they never tasted roasted malt character in Schwarzbier -- pretty odd to my experience. But I think they were making comparisons to Stout and Porter that have bigger roasted characters, so the Schwarzbiers didn't strike them the same.
     
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  13. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Sorry -- BA's editing tools are punking me -- the above was supposed to read:
    Direct from BJCP:
    8A. Munich Dunkel:
    Flavor:
    [...]Burnt or bitter flavors from roasted malts are inappropriate, as are pronounced caramel flavors from crystal malt. [...]

    8B. Schwarzbier:
    Characteristic Ingredients:
    German Munich malt and/or Pilsner malts for the base, supplemented by a judicious use of roasted malts (such as Carafa types) for the dark color and subtle roast flavors. Huskless dark roasted malts can add roast flavors without burnt flavors. German hop varieties and clean German lager yeasts are traditional.[/QUOTE]
     
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  14. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,441) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Yes, I agree, the roastiness is like a ghost... it's kind of there but it kind of isn't. It's not clear. It's interesting, and I think what brings me back to schwarzbier again and again - it's that kind of teeter-totter on the edge that makes it interesting, at least to me. But I'll also confirm that people say they find chocolate and roastiness in my schwarzbier and yet there are no chocolate or roasted malts.
     
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  15. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    I think that beer drinkers can't differentiate between "toasted" characters and "roasted" characters and just say roasted. I always tell people to think "toasted bread," or "brewed coffee."

    I even see a lot of brewers refer to "roasted malts," when they talk about highly-kilned -- but not quite roasted, barley malt.
     
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  16. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,441) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    I agree with this in general except that there is clearly no toasted flavor involved at all. I think it might be the color of the beer suggesting to the brain that there's something there that really isn't.
     
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  17. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Interesting. Can you describe the flavor? It's hard for me to think of a Schwarzbier that doesn't have some roasted quality, or a Dunkel that doesn't have a toasted bread note.
     
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  18. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,441) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    My schwarzbier, and I think all of the schwarzbiers that I've tasted in Germany have no clear toasted flavor. There may be some in the mix, but I don't get a clear toasted note. And oddly, there is a suggestion of chocolate and roastiness although it's just dark crystal malt. How can you describe that? I don't know. That's why I called it ghostly. There's an impression of roastiness but look and look and look and it's not really roasty, there's just and edge. How the dark crystal malts impart that, I don't know, but it makes up 16.2% of the grist in my recipe. I'll say the same thing for every landbier I've had except that many of them do have a chocolate note that's clearly from roasted malts.

    Dunkel of course has more of a toasted note from the dark Munich malts, you are correct, I was answering simply regarding just the schwarzbier earlier. A dunkel should have a toasted note to it, but again, I'll say that's not coming from roasted malts unless they're in very low quantities.

    One note to add, I am not against using dark roasted de-bittered malts for color if necessary but at 1% or so I don't consider them to really add to flavor.
     
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  19. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,076) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    we never mash with them. even for our fastenbier. only added at recirc for color and (at higher concentrations...I.e. 2% or so) a hint of dryness. schlenkerla does have some slight roast to it, tho
     
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  20. rodndtube

    rodndtube Initiate (135) Feb 24, 2007 Maryland

    The photos in your initial post of this thread were very informing... the mug being poured with a healthy head from the gitgo, the lightly salted not butter dripped pretzels,... nothing like some great German styles brewed correctly :slight_smile:

     
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  21. rodndtube

    rodndtube Initiate (135) Feb 24, 2007 Maryland

    I was a bit disappointed by the roggenbier at Notch in terms of it not meeting my style expectations--it tasted more like a hefeweiss to me and was nonetheless a good beer to drink, but not a roggenbier. My standard for roggenbier is by the altstadt brewery in Nuremberg. Notch did have a good overall operation and graded out at 5 pts on at 5 pt scale (beer, food, ambiance, cleanliness, service)/
     
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  22. Zorro

    Zorro Poo-Bah (4,357) Dec 25, 2003 California

    OK... WHY do North American brewers refuse to use proper Hefeweizen yeasts in wheat beers?

    It is simple. The right yeast at the right temperature to get the cloves VS banana taste from the beer.

    Only one or two do it like Germany.
     
  23. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,117) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Because they're not brewing Bavarian Hefeweizens, they're brewing "American Pale Wheat Ales." (basically, a Pale Ale brewed with wheat in the grist) They only ripped-off the Hefeweizen term to account for the haziness.

    First one (APWA) I ever had was at Bridgeport Brewing in Portland, OR back in the early '90s. Looked at the chalkboard and said, "Hey, a Hefeweizen -- that'd taste good now." Been mostly disappointed by the style ever since.
     
  24. patto1ro

    patto1ro Zealot (517) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

  25. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (10,441) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader