Interesting off flavor...anyone have ideas why?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by GUNSLINGER, Nov 11, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. GUNSLINGER

    GUNSLINGER Initiate (0) Nov 18, 2013 Colorado

    So this is a weird one. I have an off flavor that is actually GOOD, but I am not sure how this happened. Trying to sleuth this one out; anyone have a similar issue or know what's going on?

    I brewed an old ale. It tasted fine when sampling throughout the process. I follow strict clean/sanitary procedures and am on point.

    I aged it on some cognac soaked virgin white oak for about 9 months. I soaked the oak in cheap cognac and discarded the tannin rich liquid and then re-soaked in very good cognac to condition prior to adding it to the beer for aging.


    The beer tasted as it should in every step of the process; even during aging of the oak until the last week when it was getting very close to the flavor profile I wanted from the oak aging; it was right where I wanted it and I decided to bottle. The sample I took just before bottling- took on a subtle sour flavor.

    The thing is; it tastes wonderful; and as the bottles have aged it is getting more complex; not "Stronger" per say, but the sour flavor is changing a bit At first it was very subtle and oaky sourness; then the sour was very forward with less oak; now the sourness is soft and balancing well with malt/hops/oak (In bottles for about 4 months now). It tastes like a barrel aged sour old ale; that was deliberately soured very slightly.

    I didn't use any bugs (on purpose).

    The only thing I can think would have done this would be bugs in the oak, but I would think the cognac soak would kill those bugs- no?

    Of course it could be infection not from the oak itself, but something that snuck in when adding the oak. Not at bottling though, as it had already taken on this flavor prior to bottling.

    Usually when I have an off flavor I am able to pinpoint it by going over notes, tasting and detecting the culprit. This one kinda has me baffled as my practices were sound. Only thing I can think of is a random infection, or the wood had bugs and the cognac didn't kill them.

    Anyone had this happen before? Any thoughts?

    No rings around bottle necks, no gushers, nothing that jumps out and says "infected" beer. Has wonderful head retention, great velvety mouth-feel, full body and balance.

    I'm happy the beer isn't ruined as I put a lot of money and time into this one, but I would like to figure what is going on.


    Thoughts?

    -Edited to add:
    There was no pellicle or any visual indication of a bug/infection in the beer.
     
    #1 GUNSLINGER, Nov 11, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2014
  2. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Let me just start by saying I don't know :slight_smile: ...I brewed something very, very similar last new years eve. I added some Sadaf Sour Pomegranate Molasses from Whole Foods that is giving me my sourness. I call mine TOAD:slight_smile:...tart olde ale delight...enjoy! Ain't serendipity great?
     
  3. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Was the oak you used toasted or raw? To me raw oak has a subtle sour coconut flavor.

    I also pick up subtle sour notes from brown and dark roasted malts. Sort of like sour coffee, that you get from dirty coffee pots in a typical diner or cafeteria. Did you use any of these in the malt bill?
     
  4. GUNSLINGER

    GUNSLINGER Initiate (0) Nov 18, 2013 Colorado

    I used virgin oak; non toasted/charred.I looked at the recipe and I did use 1/2 lb of roasted barley; which was steeped and then added to the wort just before boil.

    Here's the recipe and process I used if it gives anyone a better idea of what may have happened.

    5 gallon batch size
    Target OG: 1.085
    Target FG: 1.009
    Single Infusion Mash 154 F
    Batch sparge

    12 lbs. British 2-Row
    3/4 lbs. Crystal 60L
    1/4 lbs. Chocolate (1/8 lb dark & 1/8 lb light)
    1/4 lbs. Flaked Barley
    1/2 lbs Roasted Barley (Steeped and added prior to Boil)
    3 lbs. Light DME

    1.5 Oz. Fuggles (5.0%) @ 60 Min
    1 Oz. Fuggles (5.0%) @ 20 Min
    .5 Oz. Willamette (5.5%) @ 15 Min
    (1) Whirfloc Tablet @ 15 Minutes
    .5 Oz Willamette (5.5%) @ Flameout

    2 L Starter of WLP-013 London Ale Yeast. 1 Minute oxygenation with pure oxy/diffusion stone

    Actual OG: 1.088
    FG: 1.004

    Aged on 2 Oz. Cognac soaked American White Virgin Oak for 9 months after primary ferm ceased.
     
  5. Naugled

    Naugled Pooh-Bah (1,944) Sep 25, 2007 New York
    Society Pooh-Bah

    Wow, is 1.004 correct? if so then you may have picked up some brett or wild yeast along the way somewhere.
     
    Mongrel likes this.
  6. kbuzz

    kbuzz Initiate (0) Jan 22, 2011 North Carolina

    I'd second this...that's dry as hell considering the grain bill. But at the same time, I've never had a beer evolve to a somewhat potent sourness and then backtrack to a "delicate" sourness with age...

    Since bugs are so slow to develop in a batch, it's really tough to pinpoint where inocculation occurred, if it did at all. Based on that flavor profile evolution, I'd lean slightly more so in the direction of one of those ingredients giving off a slightly sour component...
     
  7. machalel

    machalel Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2012 Australia

    With a FG that low, I would be leaning towards this also. Glad that it has turned out well at least!
     
  8. MLucky

    MLucky Initiate (0) Jul 31, 2010 California

    Send a few samples to me and I will be glad to render my opinion on this vexing problem.
     
    Mongrel, flagmantho and jbakajust1 like this.
  9. flagmantho

    flagmantho Grand High Pooh-Bah (6,992) Feb 19, 2009 Washington
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Jeez, what a problem to have. "My beer tastes too good -- what's wrong?!"

    But whatever caused it (as everyone else has said, that FG really does suggest some wild yeasts), congrats on making a delicious beer.
     
  10. GUNSLINGER

    GUNSLINGER Initiate (0) Nov 18, 2013 Colorado

    Never implied it was a "problem". Trying to reverse engineer what happened, as it might be something I'd like to reproduce if possible. If it was a combo of ingredients and process making the flavor I could definitely reproduce that; if it is wild yeast then it would be very hard to reproduce.

    The FG is low for the grain bill, so leaning towards wild yeast makes sense and that was my first thought also. Ijust can't figure out how wild yeast could have gotten in.

    Are there strains of wild yeast that can survive being soaked in high proof liquor for weeks? Because the oak is the only thing I can pin point as a possible supplier of the wild yeast.

    I know there are other ways for wild yeast to get in, but I take crazy precautions to keep things like this from happening.

    Thanks for all the replies.

    Take care gents.
     
  11. machalel

    machalel Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2012 Australia

    Likely not the oak, but rather was hiding in some other spot (fermentor, tools, etc).

    Maybe take a sample, build it up as a starter, then pitch it onto a small batch of something with lots of unfermentables and ferment at ~80F. If it gets to a low FG and is very sour then definitely wild yeast / lacto or something.
     
    GUNSLINGER likes this.
  12. markdrinksbeer

    markdrinksbeer Initiate (0) Nov 14, 2013 Massachusetts

    what temperature have the bottles been kept at after bottling? Cooled, or room temp?
     
  13. GUNSLINGER

    GUNSLINGER Initiate (0) Nov 18, 2013 Colorado

    I keep my bottles in a room that sits at about 66 F to condition.
     
  14. GUNSLINGER

    GUNSLINGER Initiate (0) Nov 18, 2013 Colorado

    That's a good idea, thanks. I'm going to do this and see...
     
  15. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Pooh-Bah (1,853) Mar 10, 2006 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah

    If you want to reproduce what you got, be sure to save dregs from some of your bottles to add to future brews. It doesn't matter so much what it is as long as you like it. A perfect example of the dark art of brewing living alongside the scientific approach.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.