It's high time that we update Beer Styles!

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Todd, Jun 21, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. cjgiant

    cjgiant Poo-Bah (6,005) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
    Society

    While this thread isn’t for me because I’d so love to consolidate beers along with adding necessary styles, I do wonder is there a point behind placing a country qualifier in front of almost every style old and new?

    Why American Pastry Stout? Or Belgian Grisette?

    I understand that most of these styles have a country/location of origin which can be used to categorize them and be placed in the Beer Style description, but why add it to style names where there doesn’t need a distinction? If a French brewer makes a pastry stout, is it still American?
     
    #41 cjgiant, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
    Junior, meefmoff, eppCOS and 12 others like this.
  2. JoKo

    JoKo Aspirant (289) Jan 21, 2007 Connecticut

    I don’t know if anyone else already mentioned it, but Rosé Beer.
     
  3. eldoctorador

    eldoctorador Champion (824) Dec 12, 2014 Chile

    Do we really need the "American" or "English" (or whatever) qualifier? In a lot of cases brewers are not really thinking about any of that and one has to put them under a pretty arbitrary umbrella (is this and English or American Golden Ale? or none of that) when entering a new beer. This is specially an issue for beers brewed outside the US.
     
    RMW66, eppCOS, Houborg1 and 3 others like this.
  4. cryptichead

    cryptichead Poo-Bah (1,818) Jul 3, 2014 Illinois
    Society Trader

  5. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,652) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

  6. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,652) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Yes. Because an English IPA isn't an American IPA or a New England IPA.
     
    eppCOS, REVZEB, jakecattleco and 3 others like this.
  7. ghostfacekilla69

    ghostfacekilla69 Meyvn (1,016) Sep 15, 2007 Virginia
    Society

    Understood it isn’t technically a style, but is there a way to have a category for session beers?
     
  8. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,652) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    Of course. We've always provide this info for the average consumer in the style description.
     
    AlcahueteJ, Rug and FBarber like this.
  9. WickedBeer

    WickedBeer Poo-Bah (2,620) Sep 23, 2015 Alabama
    Society Trader

    I think with such a huge trend for fruited sours, there needs to a more specific category, as many breweries don’t specify the base style as a Berliner, gose, etc. Having something simple like “Fruited Sour” as an option would be a useful addition to all those barely-even-beer fruit bombs that everyone is releasing!
     
    MrOH, mactrail, lucius10 and 2 others like this.
  10. WesMantooth

    WesMantooth Poo-Bah (3,161) Jan 8, 2014 Ohio
    Society Trader

    I’m not sure how, and it’s probably too subjective, but to me there needs to be a separation in styles in NE IPAs. Not just the lactose loaded “Milkshake style”, but the current “hazy” ipas are not at all the same style of beers as what NE IPAs were 5~ years ago. The current iteration has no bitterness, typically enough fruit to border on a smoothie, and is very chalky. They are nit even close to beers like Heady Topper, Focal Banger, Sip of Sunshine, Captain’s Daughter, Mastermind, Dinner... Like I said, this is probably impossible, especially when beers like Swish and Ghost in the Machine are completely altered to fit this new murky trend, but I digress.
     
  11. bbtkd

    bbtkd Poo-Bah (14,322) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    Society Trader

    Some suggestions;
    • Add American Pilsner
    • Rather than adding Radler/Shandy rename Fruit and Field to Fruit/Radler/Shandy
    • Instead of adding Kentucky Common rename California Steam/Common to California/Kentucky Steam/Common
     
  12. WhatANicePub

    WhatANicePub Initiate (164) Jul 1, 2009 Scotland

    • German Adambier
    • German Dampfbier
    • German Kottbusser
    • German Leichtbier
    • German Lichtenhainer
    • German Steinbier
    • German Zoigl
    • Kentucky Common
    • Polish Grodziskie (Grätzer)

    Zoigl is not a style. Dampfbier doesn't really exist – there are only two commercial examples in Germany and it is not at all clear what distinguishes them from other beers. Kottbusser and Lichtenhainer are extinct. If American brewers are making these beers call them “American Revivalist Kottbusser” or something.
     
    MrOH, eppCOS, AlcahueteJ and 4 others like this.
  13. cryptichead

    cryptichead Poo-Bah (1,818) Jul 3, 2014 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Amendm likes this.
  14. Amendm

    Amendm Meyvn (1,097) Jun 7, 2018 Florida
    Society

    Awesome, the ones to be added by the end of the month are all worthy of their own style.
    I would like to see an Imperial Brown Ale but, I'm happy for now.

    As far as the Beers styles under consideration, I have almost no clue about the proposed new German styles. I can't wait to find out.

    Nice job, Cheers.
     
    RMW66, REVZEB, rudzud and 1 other person like this.
  15. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (6,247) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Can you explain what you mean by this?
     
    thesherrybomber and Amendm like this.
  16. stosh66

    stosh66 Initiate (126) Jan 7, 2013 Pennsylvania

    I agree with your categories.
    I think Session IPA should have its own category added. The sessions are trying to be something different than American IPA but are grouped in that category.
     
    RMW66, Houborg1, kuhndog and 2 others like this.
  17. Todd

    Todd Founder (6,652) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Moderator Fest Crew Society Trader

    We renamed it to "American Black Ale" during the last update. Probably should've left it as "Black IPA."
     
    Houborg1, emalc, eppCOS and 4 others like this.
  18. Oh_Dark_Star

    Oh_Dark_Star Poo-Bah (1,966) Mar 4, 2015 Washington
    Society Trader

    I agree with this. Coffee Stout or Pastry Stout falls within Stout, Imperial Stout, and Milk Stout varieties.

    I am very happy to see American Pils and IPL.

    What I find most lacking is the sour options. I remember a post not too long back where all these less sour, fruited, and smoothie sours don't have a real good home at the moment and the suggestion was to put them all under wild ale to be sorted out hopefully later.

    So happy overall for some expansion (with restraint) though!
     
  19. honkey

    honkey Disciple (348) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    So what does that make a dry hopped German Pils fall under?

    Edit to add- I was beat to the punch. But some German breweries have been dry hopping Pilsners for as long as they’ve been brewed.
     
  20. rudzud

    rudzud Initiate (0) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts

    Except breweries are literally calling their beers 'kettle sours'.
     
    Rug likes this.
  21. rudzud

    rudzud Initiate (0) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts

    @Todd Data wise, what is the difference between the amount of acknowledged styles here on BA and the styles acknowledged on Untappd? Would it make sense to flat out mirror the styles they acknowledge?
     
    AlcahueteJ, lucius10 and officerbill like this.
  22. traction

    traction Devotee (466) Dec 4, 2010 Georgia
    Trader

    I don't know if I like the name "Smoothie Ale" but I totally agree this type of beer needs its own category since there are so many of them around right now

    I always defined the style by the ones that used dessert additives and are generally super sweet
     
    Rug, FBarber, thuey and 1 other person like this.
  23. BIABrewer

    BIABrewer Initiate (0) Nov 18, 2017 Indiana

    Personally I don't think the NEIPA should even be considered an IPA and should have it's own category since it bears no relation to the historical IPA. I'm sure the move to keep so many styles in the IPA category is a marketing move, since IPA are always the best sellers. I feel likewise about Black IPAs. Cascadian Dark Ale was a far better name for this style and I wish it has stuck. The hoppy amber and Imperial Reds also seem left out in terms of official styles
     
    sharpski, morimech, Rug and 2 others like this.
  24. traction

    traction Devotee (466) Dec 4, 2010 Georgia
    Trader

    Pretty sure an NEIPA category was added like a year ago to separate it from the traditional American IPA
     
    Houborg1, FBarber and Amendm like this.
  25. rudzud

    rudzud Initiate (0) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts

    But wouldn't the majority of those fall under 'kettle sour' ? Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't mind a vague catch all like 'Fruited sour' considering I see a fair share of beers being released that are simply labeled that, but still...

    I remember when that was called Cascadian Dark Ale and Sublimely Self-Righteous / Uinta Labyrinth ran away with it.
     
    jakecattleco, FBarber and Amendm like this.
  26. rudzud

    rudzud Initiate (0) Apr 28, 2010 Massachusetts

    BJCP would disagree.
     
    Rug and Amendm like this.
  27. honkey

    honkey Disciple (348) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    I’d be willing to say that a NEIPA typically has more in common with a historical IPA than a West Coast IPA does.
     
    emalc, Sabtos, jhavs and 2 others like this.
  28. Mwiggi1

    Mwiggi1 Initiate (139) May 13, 2015 Louisiana

    I think stouts and classifications are a mess right now.
    I think not having a Pastry Stout category.
    Pastry stout - an American stout that is sweeter and less bitter than its counterparts, that adjuncted during the brewing, fermentation, and/or post fermentation phases, with a variety of ingredients not within the Reinheitsgebot.
    I haven't looked lately but I would have to assume that a majority of the BA 250 is this style of beer. If we are all rating it high and seeking it out why would it not be a category.
    this would include vanilla, coffee, peanut butter, Oreo's and whatever other crazy stuff people are throwing in beers. It also allows the category to grow as people get more creative and the beer changes.
    Imperial >9%
    My suggestion for additions are to also include the barrel or lack of barrel into the style, BA Pastry stout, Pastry Stout, BA imperial Pastry Stout, Imperial pastry stout.

    I also think that Pastry or adjuncted kettle sour has to be a category.
    Pastry kettle sour - this is a beer where the act of souring is done either during the brewing process or by the addition of an acid to the beer fermentation of these beers are done with traditional ale yeast and not mixed. These beers are adjuncted during the brewing, fermentation, and/or post fermentation phases, with a variety of ingredients not within the Reinheitsgebot. This beer is designed to allow the adjuncted flavors be the predominant notes in the beer sometimes burying any traditional beer flavors.
    the main thing I think is that we ether need to stick with the term pastry or adjuncted across all beer styles.
     
    #68 Mwiggi1, Jun 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2020
    paulish, Rug and FBarber like this.
  29. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (3,477) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society

    Does anyone still brew a Steinbier?
     
    AlcahueteJ and FBarber like this.
  30. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (3,477) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois
    Society

    Well, if it's only Bock strength... can it be a Maibock?
     
    FBarber likes this.
  31. pat61

    pat61 Initiate (0) Dec 29, 2010 Minnesota

    I am most familiar with the Beer Judge Certification Program style guidelines but can live with the Brewer's Association Guidelines. I think the choice should be either one of these two.
     
  32. WunderLlama

    WunderLlama Poo-Bah (3,511) Dec 27, 2010 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    Would definitely like to see these styles added


    • American India Pale Lager (IPL)
    • American Pastry Stout
    • American Pilsner
    • New England Imperial India Pale Ale (NEIIPA)
    • New England Pale Ale (NEPA)
    • Milkshake India Pale Ale (MIPA)
    • Radler / Shandy

    • American Kettle Sour with Fruit
    • Asian Lager
     
    StoutElk_92, Rug and FBarber like this.
  33. ichorNet

    ichorNet Poo-Bah (2,094) Mar 16, 2010 Massachusetts
    Society

    I dislike the "pastry stout" name because it is often a misnomer. Not all adjunct-enhanced stouts are based on "pastries." I don't understand why they can't just be called Imperial Sweet Stouts or something. Part of the entire reason for their existence is to be sweet and decadent as hell.
     
    mactrail, StoutElk_92 and ChicagoJ like this.
  34. RochefortChris

    RochefortChris Poo-Bah (1,788) Oct 2, 2012 North Carolina
    Society Trader

    I know but it denotes more of a brewing method than a style
     
  35. MNAle

    MNAle Poo-Bah (2,380) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota
    Society

    So, how's that working out so far? :wink:
     
    steveh likes this.
  36. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,550) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    One more vote for adding the style of Czech Dark Lager.

    Cheers!
     
  37. elNopalero

    elNopalero Poo-Bah (4,653) Oct 14, 2009 California
    Society Trader

    I’ve skimmed through the thread and might have missed it, but I’m wondering if there should there be any distinctions around the category of smoked beers? It can be broad—smoked lagers might be too vague, but a beer like Moonlight’s Dim Lights only has smoke in common with Alaska’s Smoked Porter.

    Also, as an exercise in technicalities I’m all for more categories. However, as someone who has been slowly trying to review at least one beer in every style—I’m so close!—I will have my work cut out for me.
     
  38. elNopalero

    elNopalero Poo-Bah (4,653) Oct 14, 2009 California
    Society Trader

    EDIT: Too late to change my post, but I just looked up Dim Lights and saw it classified as a German Rauchbier. And Alaska’s Smoked Porter is a ... smoked porter. Foot meet mouth. I should have checked before posting the first part. Mods, feel free to strike through!
     
  39. jlindros

    jlindros Poo-Bah (11,484) Oct 6, 2007 Massachusetts
    Society

    And English barleywine and American barleywine are very different as well.
     
    rudzud, Rug and champ103 like this.
  40. jlindros

    jlindros Poo-Bah (11,484) Oct 6, 2007 Massachusetts
    Society

    Here are some of my thoughts on the styles.

    I would love to see Marzen and Festbier differentiated given the very different separation of the styles over the years.

    I also think Mexican Lager should be separated from Vienna Lager as they have changed over the years.

    Helles Bock and Dunkles Bock could be nice to see. As well as Tropical Stout.

    As mentioned before, French vs Belgian Saison.

    IPAs should also have Red, Rye, White, and Black (AKA Cascadian Dark).

    I'm sure I'll think of more, that's my 2 cents for now.
     
    RMW66, AlcahueteJ, Witherby and 6 others like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.