KBS Statement from Founders

Discussion in 'Great Lakes' started by Mattmc1973, Mar 10, 2012.

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  1. travMI13

    travMI13 Aspirant (213) Jan 7, 2012 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I have another question: Does anyone who was int he first 300 realize that the rest of us in the back 300 likely didn't reserve ANY at any of our local bottle shops? Why would we do that? To screw over other people in our area and be total hoarders? We were all thinking we would be set and walk away with some KBS from the brew pub, and by now, most of the KBS being distributed is already spoken for. I don't think that is a secret. There would have been a lot of us who would've been completely boned.

    Like someone already said, Founders paid it forward, and more people will end up with KBS this year because of it. At the end of the day, that's what it is all about.
    bbarak likes this.
  2. lisomiso

    lisomiso Initiate (0) Jul 6, 2009 California

  3. trginter

    trginter Aspirant (269) Dec 1, 2008 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    wish my bottle shops reserved beer.
  4. beerhan

    beerhan Defender (611) Apr 28, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    They did not but may be making some soon, probably after the reorder of curmudgeon goblets comes in
  5. beerhan

    beerhan Defender (611) Apr 28, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I was chatting with her for a while on Friday and she said they had reordered them.
  6. Jnorton00

    Jnorton00 Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2007 Massachusetts

    Great news! Thanks.
  7. johnbjaeger

    johnbjaeger Initiate (114) Mar 3, 2010 Illinois

    Once upon a time, I traipsed across an insane expanse of geography last year on a pilgrimage to Jackie O's. Drove all night, stood in line in the cold, and they reduced the allotment towards the end of our wait. You know what? Everyone was fine with it, even me. Did I get fewer bottles than I anticipated? Yes. Did I get plenty of beer and meet nice people and generate a good story? Yes. Was it probably the best thing JO's could have done to ensure that they were spreading the good word to everyone who worked hard to receive it? Yes. Are the fine people who run Founder's just a wee bit behind the curve on what the latest in beer insanity has wrought? Heck yes. Are all the people who only got 12 bottles of KBS after anticipating 24 just being entitled little baby people? Not entirely, it is mildly painful when you don't get what you expect. Walk it off, guys. 12 is a big number for KBS in the brave new world of fanatics, eBay entrepreneurs and juggalo man-slaves. At least they didn't give two cases to the first 150 campers and screw the rest of you out of your weekend (looking at you, HotD)...
    JohnfromPurdue, travMI13 and bbarak like this.
  8. alwaysanswerb

    alwaysanswerb Initiate (0) Jun 28, 2010 California

    This thread has been very informative.

    ISO: Pappy Eclipse, KtG 2007, 2008 FT: 2012 KBS
    TapeDeck likes this.
  9. BeRanger

    BeRanger Devotee (433) Dec 11, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    When you think about it, do you really go there just for your allotment of beer and not the even itself? Hell when you talk into the opportunity cost of driving to Grand Rapids and spending 8+ hours in line, hotel fees, etc you'd be better off buying the damn four-packs on Ebay for $50/pop and making out as it's a better decision financially. Just the 60 bucks in gas technically doubles the prices of the bottles.

    I went there for the 50 pours of rare beers from all over the US and meeting fellow BAs, thats something you can't really put a price on.
  10. trginter

    trginter Aspirant (269) Dec 1, 2008 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    Living 25 minutes away from Founder's, I really made a bad decision not to go up. Just chilling with fellow beer geeks and drinking good beer would of been worth it.
  11. TheBierBoutique

    TheBierBoutique Initiate (0) Jun 9, 2010 Ohio

    Actually I have a bigger problem. I run a pub in Columbus, The Old Bag of Nails, and we sell alot of Founders. Always have, always will. My problem is that I know that they shipped 3 times the amount of cases to Ohio than they did last year. So why didn't they just save more at the brewery for the folks that waited? We all could see the 2 full pallets of KBS in the brewhouse w/ a label that said 'do not ship till 3/15/2012'. How about you get into those to satisfy demand at the brewery? As people on here have already said, they should take care of their home state first and foremost. We have that problem here in Ohio too with Great Lakes, not enough product for the home state. But I digress. Now I have to go hang my new Founders neon that we received on Friday up in the window to let everyone know that we serve their products.

  12. dblab33

    dblab33 Initiate (0) Dec 9, 2011 Michigan

    All I can say is that I had an amazing day. I met a ton of awesome people, saw some familiar faces, and shared a ton of great beers. I brought out a lot of beers to share with the line because I knew this crowd would appreciate them and maybe not get a chance to try them otherwise. There were tons of folks cracking bottles, cooking food, and having a very good (but very cold) time. That's what it's all about and that's what made my day. I hope that everyone around our area had as good of a time as we did and thanks to everyone for the pours, food, and overall great time.

    I'm not going to comment on how much we watched the line grow in width as the day went on. Most of us were hanging out, drinking beers, trying to ignore it and really just not even talk about it too much. We started around what would probably have been the cutoff/grey area and I ended up being 411. We would not have gotten bottles if the allotment wasn't cut. To be honest, I would have been bummed out if we didn't get any but it would not have been the end of the world. I still got to meet a bunch of good people and enjoy a TON of amazing beer.

    While walking the line, I heard more people in the 1-case-guaranteed range saying that they understood why Founders might need to cut the allotment than I heard saying they would feel ripped off. NO ONE there expected the line to wrap completely around the block and I genuinely believe Founders didn't either.

    You have to admit that a full case is a very generous allotment. A half case is still damn good. How hard would it be to chase around 12 bottles in retail? That's really tough... even in Michigan. Allotments at releases everywhere else are typically not that large and maybe Founders should have cut it from the start, but as noted by others... cuts are happening at many other releases as they try to adapt to the size of the crowd. You had to know they were going to do something once the line was over 900-1,000 people deep and wrapped all the way around back to the start. I think there would have been a lot more sour grapes if they didn't cut the allotment.

    At the end of the day, Founders made a smart decision both as a business and a dedicated and responsible advocator of the craft beer movement. They underestimated the crowd just like the crowd underestimated the crowd and tried to respond to the situation the best they could given the circumstances. If you're upset about it, I have a feeling you probably had other intentions for that beer than just drinking it yourself.

    They can't make everyone happy - but let's face it. Founders makes amazing beers and if you stop drinking them because of what you did or did not get at the release you're only hurting yourself. You'll be depriving yourself of some truly world class beers.

    As I told many of you out of town guys that we met, if you ever need help getting anything from up this way just let me know and I'll do what I can. Thanks for the pours and the good times... and thanks to Founders for letting all of us descend on their property for the madness that was KBS day.
  13. superspak

    superspak Poo-Bah (7,721) May 5, 2010 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I absolutely enjoyed my time, and it was the first time I have ever been out to grand rapids. Met a lot of great people and shared great beer.

    Personally I don't think I am going to actively seek out KBS anymore. It should be easier to just buy a 4 pack in the store next year because of the expansion. I had KBS on tap and while it was really good, it didn't blow me away as much as I remember it fresh last year from a bottle. Frangelic Mountain Brown blew my mind and it definitely topped KBS last night. I had 2-3 pints of it. It was better than BA Sumatra in my opinion.

    I will be attending bottle releases again, but I will not get my hopes up about bottles anymore. I loved the bottle sharing and chatting with fellow beer geeks and it was just a great experience overall. I wasn't crushed, nor am I angry with Founders. Thousands of other beers I havent had yet, and I have plenty of PT5 in my cellar so how can I be mad? I'll be going back for Black Party next month.
  14. BeRanger

    BeRanger Devotee (433) Dec 11, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I think only someone from Founders could comment on this but I'm sure it has to do with sales, etc. A few weeks ago when I was on the east coast for work I was chatting it up with a craft beer store owner outside of Boston for a bit. He mentioned that the cases were already sitting in the Warehouse (Last week in February) and that MA's allocation this year was about 25% less than the prior year. Perhaps they are re-thinking what they sent out of state, providing more in state, who knows.

    I dont think Founders could ever truly satisfy the appetite of us rabid KBS beer geeks. However there does become a point that breweries have to re-treat from markets opened up to satisfy the home crowd (Allagash as one of the many examples). The 900 cases for next year will certainly be nice and I feel llike doing another half case allotment wouldnt be a bad idea. Perhaps that would detur some people from starting camp out there on Thursday night.

    Yesterday was like a Black Friday at a Best Buy where they said, "First 300 people in line receive a free plasma TV."
  15. BeRanger

    BeRanger Devotee (433) Dec 11, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    How about that Sumantra Brown that they had on tap? That stuff was fantastic.
    TATURBO, divineaudio and dlello2 like this.
  16. decadance

    decadance Initiate (0) Mar 14, 2010 Texas

    Ok, lets examine the situation. Could it have been handled better? Sure. Do I think Founders made the right choice reducing the allotment? Yes. Would I have been upset if they didn't? Not at all, and yes I would have missed out at 4:40 arrival and number 409 in line.

    The general sentiment around me was the amount of people was nuts that early, but if we didn't get bottles, we still had fun. We may have been the minority, but most of the folks in my general area understood that the people camping out were perfectly following the guidelines set out by Founders. However, those of you claiming Founders lost customers by reducing allotment, fail to realize they pleased twice as many people by doing so. Those of you in the line at >300 who have resentment for those behind you, I must say it is amazingly misplaced. There was nothing any of us did to get Founders to reduce the allotment. We just benefited from it. Those who drove off following getting their allotment yelling at us, "We hope you enjoy the half of our case," are morons. I am sorry you were upset, but Founders pleased more people in that act then they pissed off, and that will always be a good business decision.
  17. sarcastro

    sarcastro Disciple (331) Sep 20, 2006 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I think a good rule of thumb should be, if you can't afford to go home without any of the bottle release, then you probably shouldn't go.
    TriGuy20, TurdFurgison and sarro like this.
  18. raymo55

    raymo55 Initiate (0) Oct 3, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I agree with all of this too.....I am just too lazy to do all of that typing!! Nice book Dan ;)
  19. TheBierBoutique

    TheBierBoutique Initiate (0) Jun 9, 2010 Ohio

    They ran out Friday night when we got there, heard it was tasty though.
  20. sculls65

    sculls65 Aspirant (250) Dec 15, 2008 Michigan

    Well said..I would define Super-Loyal as someone who has some beer from Founders in their fridge at all times ..not someone who just surfaces for KBS and the Backstage Series. Beyond that, please refer to my response to last years Post KBS thread. Anyone who didnt see this coming was kidding themselves. Cheers to hoping next years additional production ends up in Michigan.
    raymo55 likes this.
  21. sarro

    sarro Initiate (163) May 12, 2009 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    That stuff really was amazing and while I didn't come away with any KBS, I got a nice growler fill of the Frangelic Mtn Brown to share with friends back in AA.
    MarkIntihar and Tony412 like this.
  22. FritterFlip

    FritterFlip Initiate (0) Mar 9, 2010 Illinois

    Supposed to be reply to @dblab33 "As I told many of you out of town guys that we met, if you ever need help getting anything from up this way just let me know and I'll do what I can. Thanks for the pours and the good times... and thanks to Founders for letting all of us descend on their property for the madness that was KBS day."

    Awesome to meet you and your crew Dan. My cousin and I had a great time and really appreciated all the beers you shared. I'll be shooting you a bm sometime today or tomorrow.
    chpueblo22, TheMonk41 and dblab33 like this.
  23. BeRanger

    BeRanger Devotee (433) Dec 11, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    Damn. I should have gotten a growler of that as well.
  24. Zxzm

    Zxzm Initiate (0) Mar 11, 2012

    We were there are 1:45, had no tents, and didn't sleep all night. But in any event, take a look at this:


    An excerpt: While we fully expect a line for case and bottle sales, we make no recommendations or guarantees as to when the line will begin, so please plan accordingly.

    So what rules are you talking out?
  25. brew3crew

    brew3crew Initiate (0) Jan 13, 2010 Ohio

    I misses this release but I'm just pissed they actually had a decent tap list. Was at the last two releases and they both sucked balls.
  26. oreo

    oreo Initiate (0) Jul 29, 2010 Illinois

    Im gonna go ahead and throw my 2 cents in.

    I was not at the event, but many of my friends were, and I heard their stories.

    Bravo to founders for cutting the allotment and getting as many fans the beer as possible. I am what you would consider a crazy craft guy. I arrive very early for most any beer release. I did not forsee, nor did anyone else, that 1000+ people would show up to buy KBS. All they ahve to go on is prior releases. Hell, even CBS did not garner this much attention. When you show up at midnight to an 11am release, and you are 100+ in line, what are t hey going to do really? Founders did what they deemed right to get their customers beer.

    Like it or not, they have contracts to uphold. Their distribution partners need to get beer to their stores as well. Founders can't just hold back an additional 600 cases (who knows, that might be the entire batch) just for a release when they likely promised that beer to other markets.

    Founders did ok with this one. Next time, hand out tickets as people arrive and don't make people wait in line who you know wont get any.
    decadance likes this.
  27. TapeDeck

    TapeDeck Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2011 Illinois

    You're still totally writing off the fact that it is rational to decide whether or not to road trip or stand around for x hours or camp etc based on the specific amount of beer the brewery tells you that you can buy. In my opinion it is indefensible for a brewery to announce one allotment and then change it day-of. It changes whether or not it makes sense to go, for a lot of people. And it's unnecessary. Don't tell people how much they can buy. It could be a bottle, could be a case. It's worth it to me to road trip for a case of something great. It's not worth $150+ to me to road trip for 3 four packs. That's my decision to make. That's your decision to make. Bait and switch is bullshit.
  28. sarro

    sarro Initiate (163) May 12, 2009 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    That's not bait and switch.
  29. jeebus23

    jeebus23 Initiate (132) Mar 19, 2010 Illinois

    You're telling me that people wouldn't have made the drive if they were getting half a case? I highly doubt that. You would have stayed home? Half a case is more than anyone will get at a store. I guess you're just about getting the beer, and not going out to see friends, drink good beer, and have a good time. If you don't value that, then the only thing you factor in when deciding if it's worth it is the profit you make selling half a case vs a full case on ebay. Beer used to be fun when it didn't involve all this whining.
  30. decadance

    decadance Initiate (0) Mar 14, 2010 Texas

    Someone needs to look up the definition of bait and switch.
  31. TapeDeck

    TapeDeck Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2011 Illinois

    You're wrong. If you want to pay $150 you can get 3 four packs right now. Maybe you live close to Grand Rapids. I don't. And yes it is bait and switch. People were told they could buy a case and didn't learn until 10:30 or whatever that they could only get half of that. The first 300 people have a legitimate reason to disagree with this decision. Maybe it doesn't impact your decision making. It would for me.
  32. decadance

    decadance Initiate (0) Mar 14, 2010 Texas

    A bait and switch is, economically, someone offering you one product for a set price, than providing you with an entirely different product for a higher price..

    And yes, you are right, I have no problem with you first 300 being upset, but I am also allowed to laugh at how butthurt you all are being.
  33. immobilisme

    immobilisme Aspirant (231) Nov 8, 2005 Illinois

    oops, beaten by decadance

    Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud, most commonly used in retail sales but also applicable to other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by advertising for a product or service at a low price; second, the customers discover that the advertised good is not available and are "switched" to a costlier product.

    KBS was available. Founder's did not try to sell you a costlier product. It is not bait-and-switch. If you want people to take you seriously, stop using the wrong terminology.
  34. wintbs379

    wintbs379 Initiate (94) Mar 13, 2009 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    Then you should have really took a stand, not given Founders ANY of your hard earned money and walked away with zero 4 packs. Did you?
    maltmaster420 and Vav like this.
  35. bierenutz

    bierenutz Initiate (0) Jan 21, 2010 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    And what number were you at the Dark Horse 4Elf party?
  36. jeebus23

    jeebus23 Initiate (132) Mar 19, 2010 Illinois

    I was wondering the same thing. Did any of you who were so outraged and offended by the "bait and switch" actually refuse your allotment in protest, or buy it anyway and then went home and complained?
  37. raymo55

    raymo55 Initiate (0) Oct 3, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I had a good time! Who else had a good time?
  38. Duffman929

    Duffman929 Aspirant (279) Nov 27, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Hey, sell your stuff on eBay like everyone else!
    alwaysanswerb likes this.
  39. BeRanger

    BeRanger Devotee (433) Dec 11, 2011 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I was #34 ;)
  40. TapeDeck

    TapeDeck Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2011 Illinois

    I wasn't in the first 300. I was skunked entirely, and I'm not complaining about that. I'm simply stating that some of you guys are ignoring that this is a legitimate gripe. Bait and switch also applies to price/value and availability. Looking up a wiki definition is awesome.

    Changing the allotment from the stated amount on the release date is changing whether or not it's worth spending a weekend to go drink beer. It's great to meet people and usually the lines are a lot of fun. But there was nothing pouring in the line that you couldn't also arrange at a local tasting, so let's not pretend that the purpose of standing in line isn't to buy beer. Let's also refrain from presumptions of each others motives. My group was one of the only ones around us that brought and poured beer. We supplied the area around us in line. I've never sold a beer, and I only open rares and whales when I can share them. But you have my motives pegged, don't you?

    Maybe $100 here and $100 there don't matter to you. I have to consider which road trips I can take. I wouldn't have done this trip for 12 bottles, because I could get 12 bottles for $150 or less. I can make the absurd beer drinking party happen without a road trip.
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