Lager yeast in a Barleywine

At one time a famous English Barley wine was said to use a lager yeast. I might try 2112 fermented a little warm.

 

I'm having trouble imagining it as something other than a doppelbock or strong helles bock?

 

The first thing I thought of was Samichlaus, but I know it is not a barleywine. http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/285/776/

 

I've always thought that it is a barleywine, but I see that it is classed as a Dopplebock here on the BA site. I brewed a clone of it a number of years ago, and I'm certain that the recipe used an ale yeast. At least I know that I did not ferment at a cold temp. I'll have to go back and look at that recipe to be certain.

 

Maybe use the Zurich lager yeast -- said to be appropriate for high gravity lagers. Providing you don't have issues with diacetyl and use a lager fermentation regime, I would expect it to come out clean and malty. Yeah, probably bock-like.

 

so here comes the jerkeyjerk question:
why brew a big bock with a lager yeast when a barley wine with an ale yeast can be made, with arguably similar palate results?

 

Using the malt bill and hops that most barley wines use, I don't think it will be a bock, especially if it is brewed as an American barley wine with American hops vs German hops. The Chico yeast can make a pretty clean beer if fermented cool.

 

I already brewed a barleywine with lager yeast several times. Tastes great if you ask me.
(At least in Germany there is no such thing as a 'Barleywine'. Everything strong could be labeled a 'Bock'. Top- or bottomfermenting doesn't matter.)

For brewing, I always use a normal German lager strain. Make a HUGE! starter and aerate like crazy. I had the best experience with normal fermentation temperatur about 10C / 50F and I would not recommend warmer temperatures for at least the first couple of days. Actually I would not recommend to boost the fermantation temperatur at all. It works better to make a proper starter. I also let it sit in primary for at least a month. Over time the yeast will get rid of all diacetyl etc. and I never had problems with autolysis. ( I guess open fermentation would also be a good choice for this kind of beer).
After fermentation I transfer to secondary or bottle it and let ist sit for years to come. It ages very well. I alway shoot for around 10% abv. Even after a strong fermentation I have a good amount of residual sweetnes left. Nowhere near the Samichlaus (which I find taste like syrup) but still enough to balance out the alcohol. For the maltbill I use Pilsener and a good amount of Munich malt. Often also with darker malts. I do not use caramel malt and would also recommend only a small amount. For hopping I mostly go with high-alpha German varieties like Herkules and Magnum and also mostly for bitternis to balance out the sweetnes.
What makes the Lager yeast Baleywine so special for me is the hidden alcohol. My brews always lacked any alcohol flavor in smell or taste. Because of the clean fermentation and the lack of strong esters and fusel alcohol the brew drinks very nice and easy.
(Sorry for bad English)

 

It would taste more like a bock than anything and I would say that lager yeast is the defining character of bock. Barley wines typically have a boat load of esters from a warm ale fermentation and that is the key difference.

 

Would there be any notable difference from cold lagering for a typical bock duration opposed to longer term barleywine aging at cellar temperature?

Also, how much difference in a bock would there be from using Maris Otter instead of Pilsner malt as the base?

 

worked well for Jack's abby .

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/26520/139341/

 

It would simply lack the fruitiness of an ale strain, and possibly pick up some low level sulphur notes (note the bad ones, the 'lager' ones). But I think atomeyes is on the right track... why bother? It's not like it's never been done, and it doesn't seem that it necessarily yields exceptional results.

Also, in my opinion, if it's not made with ale yeast it's not a barleywine - you can call it whatever you want, but it's not a barleywine.

 

"Also, how much difference in a bock would there be from using Maris Otter instead of Pilsner malt as the base?" ... ... ...

that's comparing grapefruit and bananas... ... ...

 

Like others have said, not sure what exactly you'd be looking for here - the taste would be different, you wouldn't have the ale esters, though if properly handled, I don't see why you'd necessarily get the sulphur lager flavors in there.
If you really want to do this, prepare for a massive pitch of yeast - lagers take a bigger pitch, and with a big beer like this, would be even more. Maybe brewing a bock or something, then racking the barleywine on the yeast cake would do it.
leave plenty of time for fermentation, then diacetyl rest, then lager for a good chunk of time would be my guess.

 

Precisely.
Besides, the only thing that matters in the end with any beer "style" is the flavor profile. How you get there (ie., which yeast, which malts, etc.) is fairly irrelevant. It's all about the taste of the final result.

And also...right on about the so called "Chico" yeast...once upon a time, the third largest brewery in the USA evidently used that very strain for all of their 'lager' beers (including their bock).

 

that idea is just....the worst

seriously though, making a regular smaller beer than using the cake for a jacked up bock-like beer. Obviously Celebrator does pretty well for itself in the beer world. Maybe a mix of Vienna, Munich & Pilsner base malts with some caramunich on top and maybe a simple sugar like invert syrup....cranked up to 1080 or 11... Noble hops to offset the sweetness...you should be in business!

 

No one talked pitch rates?

 

My point, not my first rodeo, my barleywines have done really well for me.

 

I would say you'd just have malt liquor. Bottle it in 40's, and put in paper bags... Good to go.