Let's fess up. Haze has been a godsend.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by pro100, Sep 7, 2018.

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  1. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    If brewers are dry-hopping once they've reached a stable terminal gravity and then do not check the gravity afterwards, this, indeed, might be an issue.

    https://www.johnihaas.com/library/hop-science-newsletter-october-2017/

    Although that's certainly the case, I can't imagine a vigorous, healthy fermentation producing above threshold levels to the extent that this phenomenon would reach epidemic proportions in contrast to a couple brewers with bad technique being the issue and not something that's inherent to the brewing of the specific beer itself.
     
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  2. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (6,297) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    Hey @EvenMoreJesus this OP is doing the hot take/rant thing better than you ... step up your game!! :wink:
     
  3. ndepriest

    ndepriest Initiate (155) Feb 21, 2012 Georgia
    Trader

    I think it is inherent to the style, I just think the ones doing it right are waiting (days, sometimes weeks) for the VDKs to drop below detectable levels. I've heard of a few experiments to try and combat it (such as removing grains that create dextrins as those sugars seem to be the source of the problem), but I'm not sure how much success anyone has had yet.
     
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  4. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    :slight_frown:
     
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  5. Giantspace

    Giantspace Savant (981) Dec 22, 2011 Pennsylvania


    To me that really soft cloud like body is like no body. It dissipates so fast that it feels like nothing was in your mouth. Not pleasing to me.

    Enjoy
     
  6. rgordon

    rgordon Meyvn (1,283) Apr 26, 2012 North Carolina

    I was trying to figure out how to say that. Thanks. But, I remain in the "never boring" camp. I simply buy what I like and try a few new things here and there. I do not crave the fuzzy IPAs.
     
  7. mkh012

    mkh012 Savant (919) May 7, 2015 Colorado

    As others have pointed out, we must have different definitions of "body," because NEIPAs are literally known for being full-bodied. Something can be "soft" and still full.

    Also, whether or not you had good examples of the style certainly matters.
     
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  8. donspublic

    donspublic Poo-Bah (2,200) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
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    Are we still talking about beer here? :slight_smile:
     
  9. chipawayboy

    chipawayboy Devotee (469) Oct 26, 2007 Massachusetts
    Trader

    I think you’re missing a zero on the 20 years
     
  10. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Poo-Bah (13,619) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Society Trader

    Try at least 200 years!
     
  11. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (9,921) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Society Trader

    I'm yet to try one that hasn't been thin. Also, they tend to not have any finish.
     
  12. pbrian

    pbrian Crusader (749) Feb 8, 2001 Connecticut

    At least @EvenMoreJesus comes back and participates in the discussion he started.

    My take on the subject: I'll agree with whoever said that this NEIPA craze has made the craft beer scene more boring, not less. The selection of beers in the cooler of my local is proof.
     
  13. WesMantooth

    WesMantooth Poo-Bah (3,162) Jan 8, 2014 Ohio
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    Weihenstephaner has been making the same beer for 900 some years and a lot of people haven’t got bored with it yet.
     
  14. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (6,297) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Moderator Society Trader

    But is anybody lining up for it at the brewery? Hows it trading? hm? Secondary value?
    BOOOORRRRRRING.

    :wink:
     
  15. raynmoon

    raynmoon Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado

    The original post up there is the the most cringe-inducing, eye rolling, gtfoh- moment I've seen on this site.

    And just when I thought this beer scene couldn't make eyes roll any harder. :grin:
     
  16. Oktoberfiesta

    Oktoberfiesta Aspirant (275) Nov 16, 2013 New Mexico

    The very first few acceptable WC Style ipas a few years back that I liked had tropical fruit and huge citrus notes.

    It has definitely evolved but I'm glad aroma hopping is back at the forefront. For awhile, these older WC and the older ec style( think dfh 60) had some really unappealing hop swamp tea aromas going on with them. Age and freshness has been a huge factor too lately.

    Quite a few breweries were going cheap with the hops for years.

    Lately one of my favorite ipas is still WC by nature but has a huge tropical fruit juice factor. It has that plus the old school hop ibu bite. I don't know why we can't have both.

    I'm glad the haze brought back a central focus to juicy elements but they weren't the first. I feel like that whole group needs continual validation.
     
  17. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I'm definitely in the camp that wants some bitterness in my IPA, even though I want the focus to be mostly on the aroma and flavor of the hops, solid bitterness, but not to the ridiculous level of stuff like Palate Wrecker, is a necessity in any IPA, IMO.

    Exactly.
     
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  18. Bitterbill

    Bitterbill Poo-Bah (8,224) Sep 14, 2002 Wyoming
    Society

    Did you ever watch the video, How Beer Saved The World?
    That was done without the crazy hazies. :wink:
     
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  19. Oktoberfiesta

    Oktoberfiesta Aspirant (275) Nov 16, 2013 New Mexico

    Anyone with an ounce of historical drinking sense (some haze broz are barely 21) would know that this hazy ipa thing was a bit of An evolution.

    Pine and caramel malt turned More into dry and citrus flavors. Then things just went naturally unfiltered and got a bit hazier by the year. HT has always had a wc type of floral hop bite imho. I remember describing normal ipas as juicy and tropical fruit all the way back to 2013-2014.

    Not sure when we’re calling the birth of the haze but it’s a bit absurd for anyone to want to try and really take credit.

    I remember a local ipa getting funny looks when they upped the hops for a batch and the Apperanece had a bit of haze. They were ahead of the curve back then.

    Not sure we should be thanking the haze as it just sort of feels like a natural shift. Regular drinkers can see the evolution. The haze broz may want the end game recognition.
     
  20. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Initiate (0) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona

    I don't know if I would go so far as to call it boring. I feel and still do that beer is always evolving and people are developing new varieties/styles as time passes. The NEIPA was created and is a hit with many and the scorn of many also, lol that is the beauty of beer. Anyway, I am one who loves new stuff. I always enjoy drinking the latest creations but I also love traditional beers and will always buy them. I think beer right now is awesome and our choices are endless.

    Cheers!
     
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  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,613) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    @Oktoberfiesta posted.

    “Anyone with an ounce of historical drinking sense (some haze broz are barely 21) would know that this hazy ipa thing was a bit of An evolution.”

    I think there may indeed be something to this.

    In the past I have posted in a number of BA threads my personal opinion that the Vermont IPAs like those from The Alchemist (e.g., Heady Topper) and Hill Farmstead* (e.g., Edward, Abner) were not Juicy/Hazy IPAs.

    Perhaps the evolution was indeed a transition from West Coast style IPAs to the Vermont IPAs like Heady Topper to the Juicy/Hazy IPAs of Tree House/Trillium/Tired Hands?

    This would be an excellent topic for an article! How did we end up with the Juicy/Hazy IPA beer style?

    Cheers!

    * It has been reported that contemporary Hill Farmstead hoppy beers are more like Juicy/Hazy IPAs. This was certainly not the case for the Hill Farmstead hoppy beers I drank (many of) just a few years ago.

    @telejunkie
     
  22. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,994) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Trader

    Tropical and juicy were descriptors waaaay earlier than 2013. Heck, Lagunitas made a whole career out of getting pineapple flavors out of hops.
     
  23. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,613) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    When do you think that dual attributes of soft/velvety mouthfeel and an opaque appearance came about?

    Cheers!
     
  24. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,994) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Society Trader

    That combo is recent, and I'd use that as a defining factor, myself, as I'm sure you're well aware. I'd further quality the mouthfeel as being protein rich- because I've had opaque/hazy, soft IPAs since I started going to brewpubs in the early 90s (except a lot of that softness back then likely came from low level carbonation in addition to the hop particles/oils).
     
  25. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (5,613) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Agreed!
    Sounds OK to me. I have been a proponent in many BA threads that the turbid/murky/opaque appearance is due to protein-polyphenol complexes. I have seen plenty of posts where people state the appearance is due to yeast in suspension but I disagree here.

    Cheers!
     
  26. azorie

    azorie Champion (877) Mar 18, 2006 Florida

    I thought haze is what happens when you smoked allot of pot and the room is smokey...:sunglasses::stuck_out_tongue::wink:

    I guess I missed it wtf is haze beer? sounds like a mistake to me?
     
  27. azorie

    azorie Champion (877) Mar 18, 2006 Florida

    I detect lots of sarcasm in this post...:stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  28. pro100

    pro100 Initiate (112) Oct 12, 2014 California

    Sorry there was a tinge of hyperbole in my original post as the IIPA's abv was kicking in while I was typing last night. I drink some of the more notable/respected stuff here in Southern Cali. I definitely respect all styles. Of course there's breweries that are superior to others. I'm a stout and wcipa guy as well. I just think the haze has brought a level of fun to the game minus the lines and online re-selling. I'm also interested to see what's next when the style starts to calm down and normalizes itself and where does the vaulted can release go to next.
     
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  29. utopiajane

    utopiajane Initiate (0) Jun 11, 2013 New York

    Actually scandalous is how it really was. I have to admit I have not tried enough to say I had a favorite yet. But based on Dave's assessment on body I would say the one I liked and remembered, it came to mind first was Giant Panda by Three Heads. It was hazy, it was very hazy but not opaque and some of those look like junk.
     
  30. honkey

    honkey Disciple (349) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    Ideally, if the beer is brewed with what I consider to be the "proper" ingredients and techniques, the beer really won't clear for weeks or even months, even with the use of finings.
     
  31. honkey

    honkey Disciple (349) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    I don't know of any brewers that package before fermentation is complete. If there is diacetyl, that is an easily avoidable off flavor that no good brewer should get in these beers. It's also easy to test for. With proper fermentation, these beers are easily turned over in less than 10 days. I don't know who would need to push something faster than that. Most of our beers are packaged on day 9 these days. The beer is normally free of diacetyl on day 6 or 7. It then gets cold crashed and trub is dumped for two days before packaging.
     
  32. honkey

    honkey Disciple (349) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    In my experience, once the beer is cold crashed, even with yeast in suspension, the diacetyl won't really be reduced. At that point, you've likely introduced oxygen and made the yeast get lazy, so diacetyl will only really get worse. When I've seen this happen, it normally takes a few days or even a couple weeks after packaging for the diacetyl to become apparent.
     
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  33. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    I can see the cold-crash inhibiting VDK resorption/transformation, but why would oxygen inhibit it? I can see it getting worse if there wasn't any yeast present, due to the transformation of acetolactate in solution, but yeast at room temperature should clear it. Now, if the package stays at refrigerator temperature the entire time, I can see how that would lead to it being an issue, but, again, only if fermentation wasn't healthy and vigorous.
     
    #73 EvenMoreJesus, Sep 7, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  34. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,994) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    That does seem to go along with my theory that what I'm experiencing is initially AAL, which only shows as diacetyl after packaging. In this case the beer could even pass a sensory panel beforehand.
     
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  35. honkey

    honkey Disciple (349) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    The oxygen facilitates conversion of the acetolactate. Even in a hazy/cloudy beer, there is significantly less yeast than there would be before cold crashing. If the yeast is already dormant, it is possible that there is just too much diacetyl for the yeast to clean up. Also, if you let the beer sit warm, there's the increased rate of staling, so you'd likely end up with a bad beer either way. I've had two occasions where solenoid valves failed and prematurely starting cold crashing fermentation about half way to terminal gravity. Both times I caught the problem when the temperature had reached the mid-50's. In both instances, it took 2 weeks longer for the beer to pass a diacetyl test even though they only took a couple days longer than normal to hit terminal gravity.
     
  36. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Absolutely. If there's acetolactate in solution and the solution is functionally yeast-free, you're going to have diacetyl formation without the resorption that neutralizes it by transforming it into acetoin (and then 2,3 butanediol)
     
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  37. honkey

    honkey Disciple (349) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Trader

    I have had several times when I conduct a diacetyl test and think the beer in the fermenter is perfect. The diacetyl test converts the AAL and then the test smells like butter. If breweries aren't doing diacetyl tests, they're putting themselves at an unnecessary risk.
     
  38. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Initiate (0) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania

    Right on.

    That must have sucked.
     
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  39. Alefflicted

    Alefflicted Initiate (99) Dec 2, 2017 Minnesota

    And I for one never will. Their brews are absolutely phenomenal.
     
  40. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,994) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
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    Is that the one where you heat up a sample to speed up the oxidative process? I wonder myself how often that's done; and totally agree with the unnecessary risk part- it seems simple enough.
     
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