Need some guidance/advice

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by Providence, Jan 4, 2013.

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  1. Providence

    Providence Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2010 Rhode Island

    Just a moment ago a thread where the OP asked about beers that pretended to be craft but were actually macro, was locked down, and rightfully so. The conversation quickly became a debate between people who support Ab/inbev products and people who do not. It was off topic for sure. I am guilty for participating in a major way. Again, Todd locked it down and rightfully so. But I think this is a worthy conversation to have, I just fear that starting the conversation will get it locked up. I have seen a number of other threads spiral into this topic before and, because they happen in threads that aren't really asking about that issue, they got locked down. I once started a thread about the issue itself and it was deleted.

    With all the intensity around the issue I think it is worth having a conversation about it. I think the staunchest anti-ab/inbev folks have a lot to learn from those who support ab/inbev and vice versa. But obviously, I don't want to see it get locked down. I think it is an extremely relevant topic and would love to see it be discussed. I would post a thread along the lines of "Inbev: To boycott or not to boycott? That is the question"; but I fear that would be locked down instantly.
    So my question is, is this a topic that can not be discussed here or is it just being discussed in the wrong manner? And if it is the latter, what is the best approach? How can beeradvocate be the venue for such a conversation? I think it should be, as this is the place where beer lovers gather and this is a very important topic.

    Any feedback would be great, especially from either of the Bros. Thanks in advance!
    2beerdogs and Schwantz like this.
  2. Frankinstiener

    Frankinstiener Aspirant (233) Jul 28, 2009 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Your grounded. Discussing thread moderation is against the rules.
    2beerdogs and Schwantz like this.
  3. Schwantz

    Schwantz Initiate (0) Dec 16, 2012 Florida

    Good question. Lets see. Da da da da...da da da (Jeapordy song). I'm interested in what would or would not be censored or deleted before proceeding. Guidelines please.
  4. Providence

    Providence Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2010 Rhode Island

    Just to be clear, I am not complaining about the moderation, I just want a little advice on how do handle this semi-intense issue correctly (if it's to be handled here at all).
  5. Biffster

    Biffster Initiate (0) Mar 29, 2004 Michigan

    How about this: "We are here because we love authentic craft beer and nothing will change that. The Big Guys are imitating craft beers with offerings that essentially "mimic" craft beer. While it is undeniably a compliment and a validation of craft beer by these astute businessmen, is the world of beer better or worse for the Big Guys doing this? Does the dilution of the idea of craft beer cause more harm than the mass marketing and mass availability of beers with flavor, beers that, while pedestrian to us, may essentially be "gateway" beers to the world of craft beer for a whole universe of people who might otherwise never have tried it? Discuss. Nicely."
    Jimjohson, kuhndog, jmgrub and 2 others like this.
  6. 2beerdogs

    2beerdogs Poo-Bah (2,033) Jan 31, 2005 California
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    I see your reasons for searching for, hmm what would you call it, guidelines, parameters? Maybe not mentioning specific companies by name...well then we'll all get playful with acronyms and whatnot. And those that want to spew will find a way. So, basically....I got nothing. Sorry.
  7. Sludgeman

    Sludgeman Poo-Bah (1,818) Aug 17, 2012 District of Columbia
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    I was a part of that locked thread and at the risk of being deleted . . . to clarify, I do not necessarily support InBev, I support a free market.
    HipsterBrewfus likes this.
  8. fujindemon74

    fujindemon74 Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2012 Pennsylvania

    Even if you follow the rules, some BA is likely to report you and consequently you will get a do-not-reply email from Todd re: Inappropriate Content and thread will be locked/deleted.
    2beerdogs and beerloserLI like this.
  9. mverity

    mverity Defender (669) Oct 6, 2012 Florida
    Beer Trader

    I can agree with the idea that the beers made by the macro companies will hopefully lead into people searching for more 'different' beer. I tend to see the people that drink these 'craft' offerings from the macro companies already consider themselves to be a 'craft' person. My roommate drinks mostly BL, and when he discovered some of the 'craft' options, he said "I'm really beginning to like craft beer, I loved that ____ pumpkin beer, and that ____ wheat beer. He goes into my beer fridge occasionally, or I'll pour him something fairly easy to drink like a SNPA, or similar, and he'll say "too hoppy" or the like. So as much as I sincerely hope that these 'craft' options from macros will be a 'gateway' beer for most, I have my doubts...
    2beerdogs likes this.
  10. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,411) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    If you follow the rules but some BA reports you, Todd ignores the report.
  11. fujindemon74

    fujindemon74 Initiate (0) Nov 7, 2012 Pennsylvania

    I want to believe that...really I do. No snark or sarcasm.
    But I can't.
    Schwantz likes this.
  12. UCLABrewN84

    UCLABrewN84 Poo-Bah (12,446) Mar 18, 2010 California

    People can do their own research. If some jackhole decides to blacklist a brewery that truly is craft, and other BAs buy into it, it does a disservice to the community. Let people use the magic of the internet to get informed and make their own choices.
  13. beerloserLI

    beerloserLI Defender (693) Apr 2, 2011 New York
    Beer Trader

    It's probably just a never ending debate that will go on forever.

    I also think that it is only among "beer geeks" here that we see this debate. I don't think it exists in the mainstream. I'm going to my main distributor now and see goose island reserves in more abundance than I have ever seen them. bcbs, bcbcs, etc. I bring up the fact that inbev bought them out and they give me a look like why does that fucking matter?

    I'm kind of on the fence in terms of the debate but I'm sure this is common here. I don't purchase most of the in-bev products. Not to say that I'm so much of a beer snob that I won't knock back a few bmc/ab at a bbq or party. However, I do enjoy goose island beer and especially their reserves. So while I'll still probably buy a 4 pack of bcbs or a bomber or two of the others, 95% of the rest of my dollars go toward actual craft breweries. And I don't spend lightly.
  14. taxman

    taxman Initiate (0) Feb 22, 2012 Illinois

    I have seen a number of threads quickly get off topic. It's like the "telephone game" you play when you're little: make a statement, by the time it goes around the room it's completely different. i don't know that there is much you can do to change human nature.
  15. 2beerdogs

    2beerdogs Poo-Bah (2,033) Jan 31, 2005 California
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Hey, I come from the generation where Lowenbrau and Moosehead were some of the "intros" to a new world of brewing. Oh, and Corona came in a really decrepit & shady cardboard 20pk case. But alas, many of us saught out new horizons and found gems like SNPA, Samuel Smith's, Anchor, and yes even Pete's...and I wish Grant's Perfect Porter was still around.
  16. 2beerdogs

    2beerdogs Poo-Bah (2,033) Jan 31, 2005 California
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    Yet we still try to give an even chance to a good "beer" regardless of who brewed it, yet also very wary of the MACRO's and their attempts, usuually futile, at cashing in or nosing in on the micro--- can we still say Revolution?
  17. yamar68

    yamar68 Initiate (0) Apr 1, 2011 Minnesota

    I think the problem is that the "anti AB InBev" conversations never amount to anything... and I mean anything at all. It's never happened.

    There's nothing inherently problematic about discussing it, but we live and learn... it's not even worth bringing up at this point.
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  18. 2beerdogs

    2beerdogs Poo-Bah (2,033) Jan 31, 2005 California
    Premium Member Beer Trader

    yamar, you speak wisdom beyond your years...How old are you anyways? :grinning:
    Schwantz likes this.
  19. yamar68

    yamar68 Initiate (0) Apr 1, 2011 Minnesota

    Old enough to party.:sunglasses:
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  20. BlindSalimander

    BlindSalimander Initiate (93) Aug 16, 2010 Texas

    Politics, religion and big beer. Shhhhhhhhh...........
    Schwantz and fujindemon74 like this.
  21. HipsterBrewfus

    HipsterBrewfus Initiate (0) Jun 3, 2012 Maryland


    I don't think anyone was Pro InBev. I think we were more "It's business as usual" "Who gives a shit" and "How the fuck can you even for a second think we are morally bankrupt if we DO purchase a InBev product?"

    I remember that thread though. That was a good thread.
  22. ubenumber2

    ubenumber2 Devotee (468) Sep 1, 2012 Arkansas
    Beer Trader

    What I find funny is the same guy who carries on about how he will not support big beer , that anyone who does not support their local craft brewer is a chump , blah blah blah. Then when he need to purchase something he runs to the Big Box store instead of supporting his local businesses. Drink what you like , dont worry about what anyone thinks , Main street America was too damn high anyhow , lol
  23. Doppelbockulus

    Doppelbockulus Initiate (0) Jan 3, 2012 Florida

    The guidelines are worth a read, they're pretty short, and it seems like the big thing to worry about regarding this topic is the risk of people being defamatory, abusive, or hateful; these three are explicitly stated in the guidlelines as being against the rules. Perhaps if you post a thread which initiates a positive outlook on the craft beer departments of large beer conglomerations, you might not have anything to worry about even if someone else makes hateful or judgmental replies. It would make sense to me that you wouldn't get in trouble even if a thread of yours got locked IF you tried to post something good and someone else replied with something bad. These are my best assumptions, so perhaps go the route of something like "appreciation of craft beer departments in large corporations" or "proud to see that macro breweries have craft beer interests" or something like that. If you explicitly start a thread off on a positive note it shouldn't be your fault if it goes downhill. So maybe stick a word that carries a good connotation in the subject line, and then open the body of your post with at least one statement that shows some level of appreciation or fairness among the big guys.

    There are employees at several of the big beer companies who came from the homebrew culture and landed amazing jobs where it is their responsibility to craft new and exciting beers in the craft departments of their company. So if you put the "craft" on the employees, it would make sense that Michelob, Budweiser, Blue Moon and other big guys do actually produce some craft beer. If the employee is trying to create something in the spirit of craft beer, their product shouldn't be boycotted or under-appreciated because of the brand name, because those employees are people and have a legitimate appreciation for craft beer. I wouldn't be surprised if macro companies are screaming "finally" since craft beer is big enough now to allow the macro employees to use their imaginations and not just market trend analysis.

    Hopefully this little thought here has something positive that you can pull from it. Good luck.
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  24. Providence

    Providence Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2010 Rhode Island

    See this is what I am taking about....this thread, a mere post asking for guidance on how to begin the discussion is already starting to turn into the discussion itself. I am not going to engage in it. Perhaps this is a lost cause.

    However, in response to yamar, I disagree completely. For those with open minds and open ears (or eyes as is the case with the internet), I think there is much to learn in these conversations.
    Schwantz likes this.
  25. imduffman

    imduffman Initiate (0) Oct 22, 2012 Ohio

    I expect that most quality craft breweries are happy with their success without being millionaires. who cares what the next guy spends his or her money on. as long as they enjoy what they are drinking. too many people sound like upset fathers scalding their children for straying from the path they advocate. businesses all over the world copy trends they see progress for profit. its part of the free market. are you really loosing anything at the end of the day?
  26. Schwantz

    Schwantz Initiate (0) Dec 16, 2012 Florida

    Play nice.
  27. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I think trying to have a civil discussion on this topic is like trying to have a civil discussion over politics or religion. Even if it starts out nicely, there is a nearly 100% chance it will devolve into something ugly. Too many diverse opinions and backgrounds on an Internet forum. The AB/craft discussion has been had 1000 times on this site in the past, and it plays out the same way every time. Thus why not just lock it up immediately?

    As an aside, the Bros have always seemed to take a relatively brand agnostic approach to beer, at least publicly. I don't think they would have a lot of tolerance for a thread fostering a boycott of any beer brand, be it AB Inbev, Chimay, Dogfish Head, whoever.
    imduffman likes this.
  28. sherm1016

    sherm1016 Aspirant (200) Aug 10, 2009 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    This is a topic that has been discussed ad nauseum here on BA. The final answer is that some people believe it is ok to give ABI/MC some of their hard earned money, if the beer tastes good, and others do not. Some believe you have to look past the beer and get a better feel for the people that are producing the beer, and others do not.

    The problem with these discussions is that everyone thinks that he or she is "right". Unfortunately, since these beliefs amount to opinions, much like politics and religion, there is no "right" answer. From there, the discussions typically move very quickly to personal attacks, even if they are not directed specifically at one person. Which is why the threads generally get locked down.
    Providence likes this.
  29. leedorham

    leedorham Crusader (701) Apr 27, 2006 Washington

    Perhaps frame it in a more positive manner. Rather than "Should you boycott this brewery?" try "Which breweries do you feel best about supporting?"
    Providence likes this.
  30. Providence

    Providence Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2010 Rhode Island

    I hear ya' and pretty much agree. It's just sad that we can't have the discussion here, because this is such a great place to have the discussion. The diverse backgrounds of folks here are a positive in regards to this discussion. I am of the mind that if the right people were censored (folks who turn it into personal attacks, name calling, etc.) and level headed individuals were allowed to continue the conversation could play out well. That would probably take a whole team of moderators to deal with that though...
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