New Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Torpedo Variations?!

Discussion in 'Beer Releases' started by HoptimusMax1mus, Sep 22, 2016.

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  1. BillManley

    BillManley Pundit (825) Jul 2, 2008 North Carolina

    But that's just it. It did sell well. See above. Single largest beer release of the year in both dollars and volume.
     
  2. djuhnk

    djuhnk Aspirant (283) Aug 28, 2013 Minnesota

    All I read is you are a student without any experience brewing with whole cone vs pellets

    If this head brewer is teaching you that breweries only use whole cone hops so that they can make their customers feel good about themselves buying a "natural product"
    I think he is teaching you his opinions, and clearly not factual information.
     
    #82 djuhnk, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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  3. rrock44

    rrock44 Pooh-Bah (1,793) Oct 27, 2009 Washington
    Pooh-Bah Society

    No offense here, I gotta a lot of love for SN, but I would love to try/buy your porter and stout, but I don't have that choice. I see almost every SN offering, but those two in my area. I can go into any gas station, grocery, etc and buy SN beers. Is this common in other parts of the country? Is it the stores, the distributors or SN to blame for this? Or I guess the past consumers/buyers? Is it just a conscience decision by SN to not brew/distribute these beers because the feeling is only hoppy sells? Sales figures are sales figures, but if the playing field isn't equal. I can't help to think SN would sell more of these two beers (and Kellerweis, shows up occasionally, i dig it), if it was actually a choice. SN beers are high quality and a great price point. Maybe I am just mad that I don't have much variety (and I love ipas) in my town. Ha!

    PS...I'll definitely give these two new offerings a shot :slight_smile:
     
    #83 rrock44, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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  4. Urk1127

    Urk1127 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,728) Jul 2, 2014 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Sometimes a change and or risk is necessary. How many people booing this idea are still going to try it? You probably are. Because if SNPA isnt "fruity, juicy" or hoppy enough anymore, Sierra Nevada would in some way want to stay relevant, or suffer loss. Id love to try and orange pale ale. Adapt or die is how i see it. Bring it on. And 16oz 18pks? Ill tell you right now theyll sell huge in my store. all summer i had gotten asked for SNPA and Lagunitas IPA in 18pks. They could have bought 3 sixers yea, but its a lovely convenience thatll do very well around here.
     
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  5. raynmoon

    raynmoon Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado

    Ok, then give me the factual information. Because nobody here has given me any. "Oh, its different, it does different things, maybe its good, maybe its not."

    That's all I've heard. Would you care to give me a lecture on hop oils and volatilization during wort boiling, because i'd love another lecture.
     
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  6. raynmoon

    raynmoon Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado

    But is it still selling well?
     
  7. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    No opinions, I'm simply saying that I'd like to see the data that supports the claim that having "whole cone" on the label is simply a manipulative marketing technique that sells more beer than not. Just because someone says that and you personally believe them doesn't make it correct or true.

    The absence of that data leads to questioning anybody's knowledge, no matter who they are or how many years experience they have in microbiology, brewing, etc. (or even in dealing with us dumb sheep called "customers"). The fact that someone has loads of expertise in a few areas doesn't automatically make them experts on everything else. In fact being an expert on some things can lead such folks astray when they move outside their areas of expertise.

    Just as you'd like to see the evidence whole cones work better in some areas of the brewing process, I'd like to see the data that shows that being able to put whole cone on the label sells the beer better than not having it on the label. So far all you've given us is repeating someone else's opinions.
     
    #87 drtth, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  8. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah Society

    One aspect is how the brewery is designed, some work best with whole hops, some work best with pellets. Some also say the pellets lack some of the fine aroma of whole, as the hops are pulverized to a powder in a hammer mill and forced through the pelletizer under pressure that generates enough heat that liquid nitrogen is used to cool the process. It comes down to what the Brewer believes in the long run.

    As a Homebrewer, I use both whole and pellets, and think both are fine. My system works better with whole hops, but I can use a fair amount of pellets in it.

    Extracts have their place. Some would be surprised as to how many craft breweries use extract, at least for bittering.
     
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  9. MostlyNorwegian

    MostlyNorwegian Pooh-Bah (1,912) Feb 5, 2013 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You certainly have the lippiness of a student. Calm down. There's art being made in beer. Just spend a few turns on the kettle to observe those oils/compounds get dissolved into the boil. Then observe it with different boil ratios. Then observe it with the different kinds of systems commercial breweries use. That shit is critically important for what you drink. Then weigh the options for whole or pellet hops because of these benefits and draw backs you have for what you want to brew, or how you want your hop to become part of your beer.
    Science is cool. But. All that naked exposure may not be the best approach for what you want out of the hop. Think DFH, and their spending all that time fussing around with continuously hopping their beer. Because perhaps you really don't want all those compounds getting blown out like clock work during the boil, or you don't want them slammed out of existence in a raging caldron.
    In the glass. It's a subtle thing. But, whole flowers can offer a fuller representation of your hops. And because they float. They offer a resistance which can be controlled.
    It's like food. You can go by the directions and get what you it describes. But. It's those little ingredient decisions and control that the chef grants themselves in transit which make the difference.
    Note how all of the sudden because a decision to powderize orange peel makes the Sidecar seem more tempting merely because the science of its presentation has been altered.
     
  10. ESHBG

    ESHBG Pooh-Bah (2,099) Jul 30, 2011 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I did a comparison recently and I liked Hop Hunter a little better than Torpedo actually.
     
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  11. Jaycase

    Jaycase Grand Pooh-Bah (3,554) Jan 13, 2007 Illinois
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts in this thread. These are interesting comments. Anecdotally, reading BA there are constant examples of the 'ticker' behavior, which would seemingly correspond to initial high demand followed by declining demand on a newer beer but reading your comments it's possible this is something which is measurable from a brewery's sales perspective. And there are breweries (e.g. Stone) which are constantly coming out with new releases which would appear to fall in line with this beer consumer behavior, drink once & move on.
    My hunch is that established year round beers like SNPA aren't impacted by this as much as newer, year round beers might be i.e., it's much more difficult to introduce year round beers these days.
     
  12. mmmbeerNY

    mmmbeerNY Maven (1,345) Mar 5, 2014 New York

    Price I think will keep SN in the game. I agree there are some great local options, but most want more for a 64oz growler then you can get a 12pack of SN for. I know for me, I don't mind spending more $s sometimes, but more and more I would rather buy good beer that I can enjoy for half the cost.
     
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  13. BillManley

    BillManley Pundit (825) Jul 2, 2008 North Carolina

    This is a lot more complex than any one party deciding what's what.
    Believe me, if I could get every SNBC beer side-by-side in every grocery store in America, I would... If I could, I bet I could also retire early with one hell of a nest egg too... But it's not that simple.

    Buyers for C-Stores and grocery channels have to think about real estate. They only have X amount of space in coolers and on store shelves. They look at the square inches of space available, and their job is to maximize profits per square inch of space. There are lots of breweries in the world that all want their beer in the same amount of space. If there is a beer that is underperforming or if buyers think there is another beer that will do better in that same spot... The underperformer is out.

    At some point this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The beer doesn't sell well, so it gets dropped from shelf sets, and then sales really take a dive. If I walked into a grocery store corporate buyer meeting and said "we're making a big push for Stout this year, we'd like it to go in everywhere we have a placement" I need to do two things... Show that we are investing a TON of promotional effort ($$$$) around the beer, AND decide which one of our beers I'd like it to replace on the shelf. (Again, skeptical buyers are not in the habit of gambling).
    Looking at the sheer volume of beers like Pale Ale or Torpedo (about 70% of our sales,) which one would you choose? It like choosing which hand to cut off on a hunch.

    Buyers look at sales data. Right now, hoppy beers and IPAs are the kings. Looking at sales trends, it is a safe assumption to think that some sort of IPA will be the sales leader for years to come. In trying to get an incremental place in grocery, hoppy beer would be a good choice.

    To wrap this up to the Hop Hunter conversation above... You know all the IPAs made in America right now? (Thousands) Hop Hunter is still in the top 20% (I don't have IRI data in front of me so this is an educated guess) the issue is, if it goes from #8 to #19 a buyer might think there's a safer bet with someone else's IPA. It still sells well, very well, in fact, but with the sheer number of beers in the market today, brands are being asked to do more than ever and that's the real takeaway here.
    It's hard to make a beer that will really make a splash with drinkers (not just the educated BA types, but the types who actually buy the majority of beer in the US) We as a brewery need to really try to conjur-up our crystal ball and guess what to make now and into the future.
    In the next few years, this will be more and more common. Sierra Nevada and the other larger craft brewers are the canaries in the coal mine--so to speak--the first to really feel the effects of the tighter shelf space because of the breadth of distribution that already exists. As craft beer becomes more competitive there will be more winners and more losers on the shelf and sales data will be king. Brands will have to perform better than ever before right out of the gate for release... Because there are 5,000 other beers waiting to take the square inches on the shelf.
    It's going to be an exciting (scary) next few years for all of us.
    The good news is, the general quality of beer is higher than ever... Good beer is now "table stakes" and the strongest will survive. It is the best time in the history of beer for beer drinkers... For Brewers trying to plan their future, it's getting a little scary.

    Bill
     
  14. ecpho

    ecpho Savant (1,159) Mar 28, 2011 New York

    I think Hop Hunter could be really improved by adding a bit more malt balance. It is just way too thin and dry as it is. I bought a few 6 packs when it came out and that's it.

    Aside from Celebration my perfect SN IPA could be a cross between Torpedo and Hop Hunter.
    I will try this new Torpedo as I really liked the tropical IPA - but that was becasue it was more dank than juicy to me.
     
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  15. ecpho

    ecpho Savant (1,159) Mar 28, 2011 New York

    @sierranevadabill does Nooner and Otra Vez do well? Since there's a tiny bit of new interest in lagers these days it seems - could the Kolsch (please?!) or vienna lager get a chance at year round availability instead? nooner is so tame compared to Summerfest. There are really no notable year round domestic nationwide Kolsch that I can find.
     
  16. raynmoon

    raynmoon Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado

    Just because they have "loads of experience" it doesn't make them an expert or believable?


    ...


    ...


    Uh... ok then.
     
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  17. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    It doesn't make them believable outside their area of expertise, that's right. Would you trust an experienced microbiologist to provide you with therapy in the event of a serious injury? Would you trust a master brewer to remove your appendix?
     
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  18. raynmoon

    raynmoon Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado

    Well... its brewing... so yeah... he's an expert.
     
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  19. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    My comments had nothing to do with his brewing skills.

    It was focused on one thing, your claim that putting "whole cone hops" on the label was merely a manipulative marketing strategy.
     
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  20. raynmoon

    raynmoon Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado

    Well, I think you're being a little harsh there, "manipulative."

    It's not like brewers are trying to trick people.
     
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