Trillium uses Columbus as the base hop (def for bittering, prob a bit in the dry hop, if I remember some posts from JC correctly), and I think that's why I've really enjoyed a few of their brews -- love the pungent, dank qualities it provides. For reference, you can click on all the beers on their site, and it'll give you both the grist and hop regimen. Cool they provide that.
I just moved my first try at a NE style IPA (extract) to the secondary yesterday. This is how it looked during transfer and the smell is crazy hoppy. London III Yeast .5oz Centennial @ 60 min 1oz Simcoe @ 10 min 1oz Galaxy @ 10 min 1oz Simcoe @ 0 min 1oz Galaxy @ 0 min 1oz Simcoe @ 170 degrees 1oz Galaxy @ 170 degrees 1oz Simcoe Dry Hop after 3 day in primary 1oz Galaxy Dry Hop after 3 days in primary 2oz Citra Dry Hop after 3 days in primary 1oz Simcoe Dry Hop in secondary 1oz Galaxy Dry Hop in secondary 2oz Citra Dry Hop in secondary
pretty solid observations. I'm a huge Jamil fan, and so I guess I tried to cut him some slack. I tweeted him and asked if he made his way over to Cellarmaker yet, as It appears they are doing hazy hoppy beer right, especially since they have a close relation with Tired Hands. He never did respond, and thats okay. Maybe he did have a crappy example of a NEIPA in front of him. I do believe he is ignorant to the "style", since he doesn't have access to any of the people killing it. But yea I agree, a lot of Jamil fans just jumped on that hazy beer hate bandwagon, and perhaps west coasters just don't have many good commercial examples available to them?? And don't even get me started on the comments of the BN's finest heel JP....
My first attempt and first batch! Used the double sunshine clone recipe from BYO. Could only boil 4 gallons instead of the 6.5 the recipe called for so I topped off to 5 gallons in the carboy. Used 1318 and didn't cold crash or do a secondary. Dry hopped 4 days after 1 week in primary.
Yeah I've learned a lot from Jamil, so it's kinda disheartening to see him/them dump all over these beers. As for JP he doesn't like anything with more than .25 oz of hops in it so no surprise there. And here I thought " Cascadian dark ales " we're controversial lol.
Yea I had similar feelings. Unfortunately a lot of people in the world just haven't had a good example, so they choose to berate a style they never had the pleasure of drinking. Its unfortunate, but I'm not gonna lose sleep.... plus these 8.5% NEDIPA's have completely crushed any Insomnia I may have suffered from.....
Have you considered sending Jamil some of your homebrewed beers and/or Tired Hands? Just like you commented, maybe he needs to try 'good' examples. Cheers! P.S. I have sent many of my homebrewed beers to commercial brewers and they have always appreciated it.
If I could keep them around long enough I would consider this.... but honestly people's opinions don't matter to me. I'm not out to convert people on this style...just trying to educate the people that are interested in brewing/drinking them. **edit** I have a close relation with the brewers of a place in Pittsburgh called The Brew Gentlemen....if I ever need positive reinforcments on this style...they do it for me. They are brewing absolutely world class hazy hoppy beer. I call them the Tree House of Pittsburgh.
Mind sharing the grain bill? I recently put together a extract recipe to try to mimic a NE style IPA with about 30% Wheat DME and some carapils to steep while heating the water. Curious to see how much of that soft, medium bodied mouth feel I can get out of an extract batch but it's still in the fermenter for now.
Curious to hear how you went about this. Were they local breweries and you stopped by? Or did you ship to them? How did you tell them to expect it.
I have gotten to know a few local brewers and became friends with them. When I am nearby or visiting the location (e.g., the brewpub) I drop off some homerewed beers. They have all been very appreciative to receive them. As commercial brewers they are often constrained in what they can brew (i.e., only brew beers that will be bought by their customers). They like to drink an assortment of beers and they get most excited to drink less popular beer styles like Grodziskie, Classic American Pilsner, Sticke Alt, reconstruction of an 1896 Michelob, Cranberry Belgian Pale Ale, etc. Yup. I have shipped them a half-dozen times or so to brewers who are not nearby. For some of these brewers I have corresponded with them on brewing related matter seeking some guidance on recipe formulation or brewing process questions. As a thank you I sent them some homebrewed beers. I coordinated shipment dates via e-mail. It is all about sharing the joy of good beer. Cheers!
"NE Session IPA" 1.040 OG 1.0095 FG ABV 4.0 Mashed at 154 PH 5.25 Water profile Ca-95 Mg-0 Na-0 Cl-138 SO4 40 HCO3-0 73% Pale Malt 8% Flaked Wheat 16 Flaked Oats 3% GNO Bitter to 16 IBU with Centennial Mosiac, Centennial, Apollo 3-2-1.5 (ounces) at 140-160-200 (degrees) 1 oz Simcoe pitched with 1318 Primary Dry Hop and Keg Hop Split with Mosaic Centennial Simcoe 2-1-.5 (ounces) Too young to give a accurate review but It could use a touch more color IMO.
Getting started on starters tonight. 1318 & 1056 both getting stepped up in 1500ml 1.030 starters to the tune of 215b cells. Wort is going to come in @1.058 and will be using chinook, centennial, columbus, and amarillo in the boil. Dryhops will be columbus, centennial, and copious amounts of citra.
If you are looking for advice, I recommend a slightly lower pitching rate... Around 170 Billion cells for 5 gallons. I prefer a slightly lower pitching rate for hoppy beers as I think it helps to preserve hop flavor a bit better. I think the increase in esters for the 1318 is also a positive. It is a beautiful yeast strain with great peach aromas. Good luck!
The 215b is below suggested pitching rates, and I know alot of brewers are underpitching their ipas at this point in time. I wasn't sure what rate to shoot for, so I erred on the side of caution as I am really going for a comparison between the yeasts strictly from a haze or opacity stand point. While la cumbre also underpitches, erway's beers are crystal clear. I didnt feel pitching rate should have deviated too far out from suggested rates for that reason. I think hop choice also has alot to do with this haze, and originally had chinook, columbus, and centennial as my dry hops, but I changed it up to include citra because of its high oil content. There is alot of chatter about yeast and hop oil biotransformations with specific oils, and while I cant remember which oils, I do remember citra was named as one of the hops e, pected to encourage these biotransformations. All I know is I am going to have 4cases of beer from this, and it damn well better have citra in it. I love that hop.
I may as well throw the recipe up here for comment, critique, questions, and transparency. 70% pale ale malt 20% us munich 10% red wheat malt 11 gallon batch 1.058 og 1oz columbus @ 60 .5oz chinook @ 30 .5 oz centennial @ 30 .5 oz chinook @15 .5oz centennial @15 1oz ea chinook and amarillo @ 0 2oz centennial @ 0 I am playing with the dry hop, but am thinking each fermenter will get... Dryhopped day 7 in primary 1.5 oz ea centennial and comumbus Day nine adding 3oz citra per fermenter for five more days. looking at 14 days from kettle to bottle, first dryhop in for 7 days, second for 5.
I'm not sure you're going to get a "NE-IPA" profile from this recipe. The hop profile looks like classic West Coast, and the grist reminds me more of a classic East Coast IPA, as opposed to the new NE style. Should still be a nice beer.
Just my 2 cents, but everyone seems to be adding their first dry hop addition after 2-4 days, not 7. It's your beer and looks good. Thought I would throw that out there. I believe the theory is the yeast has a chance to interact with hops as they are active.
Normally, I use .6 million cells/ml/*P as my pitching rate for hoppy beers... .75 million if I'm above 16*P. I still aerate well before pitching. Normally, I see terminal gravity on day 4 or 5. I like to dry hop as terminal gravity is getting close, so I typically do the first round of dry hops on day 3 or 4. Personal preference, I would drop the Munich and do 90% Maris Otter. I have had success with flaked oats and flaked wheat for a good mouthfeel. I have never brewed with red wheat malt though, so I can't really comment on its use in this recipe.
My version (using 1318*), which is still very cloudy after 5 months in the keg (see earlier post in this thread), was dry hopped in the primary on day 17, so early dry hopping is not a requirement. However, the beer was quite cloudy when the dry hops were added. If this cloudiness was due to yeast, then they certainly would have had contact with the hop oils. However, the most active part of fermentation would have been finished by then. *I think I posted my recipe somewhere earlier in this thread, but I'm too lazy to look for it right now.
The reason for the early dry hopping is not to induce cloudiness. It is to allow the yeast to biotransform hop compounds. Matt Brynildson from Firestone Walker has said before that he likes to dry hop with yeast to get the biotransformation and then again after the yeast has gone dormant to get the flavors that were transformed. I think this is not always necessary (or always a positive thing), but I believe that Wyeast 1318 has the ability to create stronger flavors through biotransformation than a lot of other yeast strains do.
Let me qualify a couple things with the recipe and clarify my thought process behind my grist and hop schedule. First, this beer falls between American pale ale and imperial pale ale. I have used a similar grist in the past with great success utilizing a high percentage of Munich. I may drop the munich to ten percent, but I enjoy what Munich brings to the table with its breadiness. I am not doing a iPa, but utilizing what I have experienced with my pale ales, along with what this thread has brought up, to verify if yeast selection is the magic bullet here. @honkey red wheat is nice in a pale, modus hoperandi utilizes red wheat as well. It brings a bit more protein than white malt, and the flavor is a bit less sweet than the white. As for the hop schedule, if you scale this down to a five gallon batch, the beer gets a half oz of hops at 60, 30, and 15. While I enjoy hop bursting, the beers I have brewed at home seem to taste better when I have small flavor additions earlier in the boil to support the whirlpool additions. Think lagunitas new dog town compared to pipewerks lizard king. Lastly, my dry hop schedule is built around my personal schedule. I want to bottle on a Saturday where I have time to get 10 gallons into bottles.
@SFACRKnight, I just want to say I appreciate the split batch experiment that you are doing. I think it is important that you produce beer that you enjoy drinking so I personally would not suggest you make any recipe changes; I just want to hear about your experiences wrt cloudy vs. non-cloudy. Once you have your final beers in hand you might want to consider some further evaluations of the two beers. Perhaps solicit the help of other beer drinkers (are you a member of a homebrew club?) and conduct some blind beer tastings. I would suggest using opaque glasses if there is an appearance difference and conduct triangle tastings. Maybe go further and request tasters to provide some tasting impressions of the two different beers. For example it would be interesting if blind beer tasters would use the word "juicy" to describe one beer vs. the other. You should not influence this tasting process by suggesting words to be used as descriptors but just take note of how people describe the two different beers. I wish that I lived nearby in Colorado so I could participate as one of the blind taste testers. Cheers!
As a newbie who has been following this thread. Wasn't there the question if large dry hopping with the 1318 was causing at least some of the haze? I recently did an extract try at a NE IPA, in bottles conditioning right now. I added my first dry hop 4oz dry hop on day 3 in the primary. Before I added the hops the wort didn't look too cloudy, but by the next day after adding them it was noticeably cloudier. It never cleared up since the first dry hop addition. I only use a little wheat DME and no oats or anything and as of transferring the beer to bottles has a cloudiness to it. Thanks to all the info in this thread, I have been learning a lot.
@JackHorzempa i am not a member of a homebrew club, but do have a local brewpub owner who may be able to help me with a blind testing. I may need to buff up on my statistics prior to this though.
Hopefully @honkey can provide some guidance here since he conducts taste tests with his beers. Another source of guidance is: http://brulosophy.com/exbeeriments/ Cheers!
My theory is that this particular strain (and a few others) lost its ability to flocculate when the hop oils and resins coat the cells. In beers where the yeast does flocculate, those flavors are lost with the yeast. In my opinion, that is what makes this yeast strain, and others that exhibit the same characteristic, so well suited for hoppy beer production. I also think the interaction with the hops and yeast over time can create some unique flavors and can also lead to a more stable hop flavor long term. Heady Topper for example does seem to retain its hoppy flavor and aroma better than a lot of other Double IPA's. It would be fair to mention that The Alchemist is incredible about D.O. pick up, but I still think that the yeast remaining in suspension plays a role as well.
Dug up some pics from a Bitter that I brewed last year with 1318. This beer had ZERO dry hops. Sample at bottling 2-weeks: Pint after bottle conditioning 2-weeks:
Am I doing it right? Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy, 2 row, golden promise, flaked oats, flaked barley, wheat, honey malt, wy1318. Definitely my best IPA yet, but its also my first kegged IPA which I think made a huge difference. I'll be brewing this exactly the same with different hop combos.
