Welcome to BeerAdvocate!

Looking to talk, rate or trade beer? Join today by creating your free account.

Dismiss Notice
Curious about recent updates to the site and app? Check the Announcements forum for updates.
Dismiss Notice
Love Belgian Beer?

Join us Sep 17 in Portland, Maine for Return of the Belgian Beer Fest, featuring hundreds of authentic Belgian beers and Belgian-inspired offerings.

Tickets + more: beeradvocate.com/belgian

Odell Runoff Red IPA label to be re-branded as Runoff Red IPA

Discussion in 'Mountain' started by SoCalBeerIdiot, Sep 10, 2013.

  1. SoCalBeerIdiot

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Posts:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    California
  2. Domingo

    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Posts:
    6,327
    Likes Received:
    8,681
    Location:
    Colorado
    ...sigh...another good brewer pulling this nonsense.
    That said, it's still an awesome beer. Hopefully this opens the door for them to bring ESR back.
     
  3. rather

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Posts:
    1,012
    Likes Received:
    1,043
    Location:
    California
    is it just me or is the title confusing?
     
  4. JEdmund

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Posts:
    117
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Kansas
    Too bad. I liked the old goat label better. Surely they could have worked in "IPA" somewhere and kept it. Oh well. It's a great beer and I'll still buy it.
     
  5. BrettHead

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Posts:
    3,300
    Likes Received:
    3,304
    Location:
    Nebraska
    They have told me that ESR is too expensive to brew
     
  6. BrettHead

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Posts:
    3,300
    Likes Received:
    3,304
    Location:
    Nebraska
    I think the old goat label was dark and didn't fit with the rest of their branding
     
  7. denver10

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Posts:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    14,367
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Perhaps my favorite beer from these guys. I liked the old label art, I like the new label art. As long as the beer isn't changed, consider me happy. The one change I do wish for this beer, however, is for them to throw it into their regular lineup and make it available year round. I enjoy this one best in the warmer, sunny weather, so would love to have this available in the summer.
     
    Oxymoron likes this.
  8. alexipa

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Posts:
    766
    Likes Received:
    609
    Location:
    Colorado
    I like the new label a lot. I'm also glad they changed the name from a Red and I hope many other brewers follow suit. "Red" ale has become way too broad of a style; ranging from malt-bombs to what are clearly IPAs.

    I've obviously had this before and love it, but I want to have an idea of what the beer is before buying it if I'd never had it.
     
    denver10 likes this.
  9. SoCalBeerIdiot

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Posts:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    California
    This thread got moved to a regional thread, but I see it less about the name change and more about brewers calling beers IPA just to sell more of them. This should be back in the general Beer News or Beer Talk, IMhumbleO.
     
  10. SFACRKnight

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Posts:
    5,681
    Likes Received:
    6,236
    Location:
    Colorado
    One of my favorite beers getting pulled into one of my least favorite marketing ploys. Nice.
    Why not call that dryhopped saison a damned farmhouse IPA too?
     
    the_trystero likes this.
  11. guyforget

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    234
    Likes Received:
    155
    Location:
    Colorado
    confusing title is confusing
     
    MarkyMOD likes this.
  12. ablackshear

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Posts:
    862
    Likes Received:
    1,089
    Location:
    Colorado
    I am indifferent to the change, and agree with alexipa that red is too broad a style anyways. Red Hoptober was all-malt, while this one is hopped up like an IPA. Whatever they call it, it will remain my go-to après-snowboard beer, you'll see me downing a couple in the passenger seat on I70 eastbound every Saturday evening December-March. Unless you are a state trooper that is.
     
    FishPondManager and denver10 like this.
  13. SoCalBeerIdiot

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Posts:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    2,075
    Location:
    California
    ISO: Double Dry-Hopped Farmhouse IPA
     
  14. guyforget

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    234
    Likes Received:
    155
    Location:
    Colorado




    at least in this case its more specific about how the beer is going to taste.


    not like calling all of your beers "farmhouse" when they have nothing to do w/ the "farmhouse" style of beer, which is crazy annoying.
     
    riored4v and joshclauss like this.
  15. ssteigerwald

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Posts:
    858
    Likes Received:
    978
    Location:
    Colorado

    What the Hall are you talking about?
     
    CJS262, flowersjg, riored4v and 5 others like this.
  16. ablackshear

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Posts:
    862
    Likes Received:
    1,089
    Location:
    Colorado
    I see what you did there
     
    joshclauss likes this.
  17. joshclauss

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2010
    Posts:
    674
    Likes Received:
    455
    Location:
    Colorado
    There is no story here. Red IPA or American Red Ale is an emerging style, and I bet it'll get a BJCP category at some point. The beer style designation is more descriptive, and this is a good thing for the consumer.
     
  18. joshclauss

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2010
    Posts:
    674
    Likes Received:
    455
    Location:
    Colorado
    Now, if we want to talk about the name "Runoff" for a beer, that's a different story...
     
  19. Domingo

    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Posts:
    6,327
    Likes Received:
    8,681
    Location:
    Colorado
    I really, really hope that if "Red IPA" becomes a style that they change the name of it completely.
    I can live with American IPA being a style since it's an homage to the British version of the style...but making the letters "IPA" (one of which stands for India) synonymous with hoppy is ridiculous.
    Odell's Red is a great beer, but it has no more in common with the British ales shipped to India than Uerige Doppelsticke. Luckily Uerige hasn't decided to rename their beer to "Duesseldorfer IPA" yet.
     
    coreymcafee and hopfacebrew like this.
  20. joshclauss

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2010
    Posts:
    674
    Likes Received:
    455
    Location:
    Colorado
    Sounds like a good debate to have over a pint.
     
    SalukiAlum and Domingo like this.
  21. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    I agree no story here as it just a change of a name, Red IPA is completely subjective and as there is no guidelines for it, there's no problem here.

    But I completely disagree with regarding this as a separate style. Black IPA, White IPA, Red IPA, Belgian IPA are all interpretive styles by brewers have have no real guidelines. The only guidelines created are based on a few good examples of each but all the XXXX IPA's out there are really just hopped up (typically with American hops, possibly dry-hopped like American IPAs) versions of the base beer and I disagree that they should be separate styles. The only one that may have a case is Black IPA because of the specific use of debittered black malt and should probably be category 10D. They are just using "IPA" as a suffix to signify the extra addition of hops just like "Imperial" is used as a prefix to designate a stronger version of the base beer.

    So what I'd argue is that we just need a different name or acronym to put at the end of these existing styles that are just hopped up. It's a little ironic too because most XXXXX IPA's are styles hopped with American hops (vs. English)... EDIT: so maybe it should be something like AHA (American Hopped Ale) v as Mebuzzard suggests below.
     
  22. Mebuzzard

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Posts:
    2,412
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Colorado
    Revolution!

    What would be good name for hoppy beers that are rooted in the IPA recipes, but are neither Indian nor pale?
    Let's throw around some names. I'll start:
    "AHA--Aggressively Hopped Ale"
     
  23. BrettHead

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Posts:
    3,300
    Likes Received:
    3,304
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Was this title edited to the nonsensical one it is now or was that the original title? lol
     
  24. Domingo

    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Posts:
    6,327
    Likes Received:
    8,681
    Location:
    Colorado

    Some brewers are embracing the title of American Black Ale, which I think is just fine. You can always add the word "double" to differentiate stronger versions.
    With Red, I think we're actually already covered. You'll notice that most classically malty beers of that color are called "Amber" while the hoppy versions are usually "Red." I say stick to that. You can always tack on "double" to those as well. The (apparently faux) style of Irish Red also covers some other bases, too.
    American White Ale can handle the "White IPA" ...assuming that style hasn't already died off by itself.
    The tricky one would be Belgian IPA. There are numerous things right and wrong with that name. Anyone know if most are using a common yeast or are they all over the place?
     
  25. ablackshear

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Posts:
    862
    Likes Received:
    1,089
    Location:
    Colorado
    call it a Cascadian imperial portergueuze for all I care, just put good beer in my belly
     
    drumrboy22, Mebuzzard and coreymcafee like this.
  26. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    These are not common place as you think.

    American Black Ale is not "technically" a style, only identified by BA (aka Cascadian Dark or Black IPA, it's still left up to the brewer), Red is not a stronger version of Amber, Amber/Red are the same style and according to BJCP "lightly hopped". American White Ale, never heard of it. White IPAs are actually Belgian Wit base beers... hopped with American hops like an American IPA... Belgian IPAs are typically American IPAs fermented with Belgian Yeast or Belgian Pales hopped like an American IPA and fermented with Belgian yeast.

    Not trying to be a BJCP snob, but BA (BeerAdvocate) styles are completely subjective, some based on BJCP... so if you don't use BJCP it doesn't REALLY matter what category these fall into, so long as they're good beer, I don't think consumers are going to care, and "right or wrong" the phrase IPA is most commonly known for simply "being hoppy" by beer nerds and average drinker alike, hence why brewers use it for marketing.

    Another resource would be the BA (Brewer's Association) guidelines that are a bit "updated" and used at the World Beer Cup & GABF, IIRC (which does have the American Black Ale category listed now)
     
    PalatePilot and alexipa like this.
  27. ablackshear

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Posts:
    862
    Likes Received:
    1,089
    Location:
    Colorado
    I think we found the solution to all those old Port IPAs of varying age sitting on shelves all over town. Blend the different vintages, Gueuze IPA
     
    CK21 and Prospero like this.
  28. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    7-month Goozie IPA?
     
  29. Domingo

    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Posts:
    6,327
    Likes Received:
    8,681
    Location:
    Colorado

    Mine are suggestions, not realities. Considering the naming conventions on the shelf, I'd say that the BJCP styles guide doesn't really seem to affect anyone's branding anyway.
    I just hate the entire idea of using the word "India" to be hoppy. Cascadian Dark (which implies either cascade hops or the made in the mountains) and Black India Pale Ale are both awful names. Why not just American Black Ale?
    Right now Red and Amber are listed as the same thing, but if you actually look at the commercial beers using those names, there's a pretty clear division with Amber being malty and Red being hoppy. Why bring "IPA" into things when you already have an easy way to divide the hoppy vs. malty beers of that shade. You can add the word "double" to differentiate when either of them is stronger than usual.
    American White Ale is a better name than "White IPA," again assuming anyone will still be brewing those in 6 months. That was all the rage for an hour or two.
    With Belgian IPAs...that's just a mess of naming conventions to begin with. Some right, some wrong.

    Good beer is good beer, but if we're going to bother awarding things by style and labeling everything, Id like to see things cleaned up. If this stuff continues we're going to have 8,000 winners at the GABF and a shelf-full of similar beers all labeled as different styles. I'd love to see us go the route of the Europeans and stop having "styles" but instead just use adjectives like "dark/strong/export strength/etc." to describe things.
     
  30. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    Yea, we're saying the same thing


    I agree, but I wouldn't give these beers generic names that have no indication of the high degree of hoppiness or origin. People know IPAs are hoppy, some people even know to drink an IPA fresh. But then to confuse the commonalities (high IBU's, American hops, dry-hopped) by giving them all different names is only going to confuse people further, that's why I think it should simply be an adjective or suffix similar to Imperial/Double. To simply change the hop bill does not mean it should automatically be a different style. And the case with Amber vs. Red, the only issue is that again there's no indication that it's hoppier. Commercial red ales are simply fuller bodied, sometimes redder in color (use of roasted barley or carared), sometimes stronger ABV, and sometimes hoppier to help balance out the fuller body, it's not simply/only "more hops".

    And don't forget Brown IPA or most commonly referred to as India Brown Ale or Indian Brown. Same principle, it's not a new style and shares same commonalities (high IBU's, American hops, dry-hopped), it just needs an indicator/suffix to explain it to customers.

    Basically what you said here:
    Couldn't agree more.
     
  31. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    I guess the other argument I could think of for using IPA (again right or wrong, I'm not necessarily an advocate for it) was that it was England that termed the phrase "IPA" and they were the one's brewed it and was referred to as a pale ale prepared for India. So we aren't the first to use a term that doesn't refer to it's origin and if you think of it as "prepared for India" than it's pretty applicable. :)
     
  32. guyforget

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    234
    Likes Received:
    155
    Location:
    Colorado
    now you guys know how a chef feels when he meets someone and they say "oh, what kind of chef are you?"

    uh... what day is it? what dish, specifically? american, french, italian, asian? a few or all of them at once? what "type" of chef you are might just depend on what side of bed you woke up on that day.

    brewers, like chefs, are emerging w/ different styles and creations every day. they are not limited by judging labels, regional climates, or supply/distribution issues.

    the scene in craft brewing is very analogous to what happened in food/cuisine in the late-90s and 00's (farm to table movement, etc), both in what they rose from and the growing pains associated. the beer awakening has taken longer because cuisine has always associated itself with wine, since the roots of cuisine are often associated with france primarily and italy, etc secondarily. the cuisines of belgium and germany, for instance... never really caught on globally.
     
  33. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    i totally understand, but to sell something on the shelf it's best to at least identify to the consumer what it is you're selling... even wine 'blends' typically tell you the blend of grapes it is. i don't think anyone here is saying brewers should stay within category, but to your point we may just end up with a lot of hybrid/fusions :)
     
  34. beatenbyjacks

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2011
    Posts:
    506
    Likes Received:
    369
    Location:
    Colorado
    Odell RED is one of my favorite beers by them and sad to see the Goat go....

    I hope that Montage will be a price break here soon. I love Odell, but $19 for a mixer?!? I will try each of the new Montages' when they come out, just to try the new beers, but would like to see their mixer price closer to the competition. Yes, they have experimental beers and seasonals, but still.
     
    denver10 and SalukiAlum like this.
  35. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    And until they revamp Loose Leaf, I'll pass.
     
  36. beatenbyjacks

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2011
    Posts:
    506
    Likes Received:
    369
    Location:
    Colorado
    Loose Leaf is only going to be in the summer Montage. Odell IPA, 90 Shilling, their Seasonal Beer, and a new 1 off will be in the Montage going forward.
     
  37. Prospero

    Beer Trader

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Posts:
    2,089
    Likes Received:
    2,249
    Location:
    Colorado
    What's the fall one-off?
     
  38. denver10

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Posts:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    14,367
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Loose Leaf will be made available in regular six packs next year. Odell posted this one their Facebook page a month or so back. A local Odell rep also confirmed this when I saw him at the bar a few weeks ago.
     
  39. denver10

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
    Posts:
    4,510
    Likes Received:
    14,367
    Location:
    New Mexico
    A dry-hopped Saison, Wellspring Ale.
     
  40. mkorpal

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    Posts:
    149
    Likes Received:
    97
    Location:
    Colorado
    Poor Odell, rename a beer"runoff" with a label showing rushing water a day before the worst flood in state history.
     
    coreymcafee likes this.
  • About Us

    Your go-to website for beer (since 1996), publishers of BeerAdvocate magazine (since 2006) and hosts of world-class beer events (since 2003). Respect Beer.
  • Return of the Belgian Beer Fest

    BeerAdvocate Brings its All-Belgian Fest to Portland, Maine on September 17, 2016. Tickets are on sale now.

    Learn More
  • Get the Mag

    Become a BeerAdvocate magazine print subscriber today.

    Subscribe