Oktoberfest Wiesn vs. Marzen

Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by ifnkovhg, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. zid

    zid Meyvn (1,330) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    I’ve read that Weissbier was popular in the 1600s but was in big trouble in the 1800s, and then Georg Schneider was the first “commoner” allowed to brew Weissbier. The brewery suffered setbacks due to the two World Wars but survived the conditions, had success and grew (partially due to the setbacks of others during that time). By the 1950s, the beer came back into fashion, and Schneider raised “output capacities significantly” while having success exporting the beer.
     
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  2. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,270) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    From Jackson:
    "The Schneider family had at one point owned several of the former royal wheat-beer breweries, and after the war concentrated their efforts at the one at Kelheim. When I first encountered this style, in the early 1960s, it seemed to be the preserve of elderly ladies, and its share of the Bavarian market could be counted in single figures. Schneider was able to rely on the style only because it was the specialist in the field. Some time in the late 1960s or early 1970s, wheat beer was discovered by a new generation. It now has 25-30 percent of the Bavarian market*, with a considerable following elsewhere."

    *1997
     
  3. zid

    zid Meyvn (1,330) Feb 15, 2010 New York
    Society Trader

    Jeff Alworth backs that up stating that in 1960 it was 3% of Bavaria's production, then it doubled in the 60s and tripled in the 70s. Looking back, I think I took Schneider's site too literally when they were probably thinking broadly in terms of eras while also being too poetic... and then having that idea corroborated by others that simply stated "the mid-1900s." I'll give the edge to Alworth.

    I tell ya, this little exercise hasn't really painted a different picture for me, but getting into the details managed to get me to appreciate the style more. Cheers to that.
     
  4. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,270) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Heh -- I was just thinking similarly. My first Weißbier was a Hacker-Pschorr .5 liter bottle I found at a small local store around 1979. The yeast had nearly coagulated and floated in a strange, alien-like manner in the bottle. I was young and adventurous at the time, so I took a chance. I honestly can't remember my impressions of that beer, and it didn't kill me, but I know I was still drinking Weizen in the mid-80s and always enjoyed it.

    Schneider is probably my favorite Weizen producer and every time I have an Original or Aventinus after a long absence I marvel at their complex deliciousness. My problem is finding bottles that haven't been on the shelf for 2 to 3 years.
     
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  5. zid

    zid Meyvn (1,330) Feb 15, 2010 New York
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    I think my first was Franziskaner and I absolutely hated it at the time. It was probably the most yeast forward beer I ever had at that point. Forgive me; I've gradually eased up since then. :grin:
     
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  6. Crusader

    Crusader Aspirant (288) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    I feel this snapshot into the Bavarian beer market anno 1860s to be quite interesting. They're from Gustav Noback's book Die Bier-Production in Oesterreich-Ungarn, im Deutschen Reich, in Grossbritannien und Irland, Belgien, Frankreich, den Niederlanden, Schweden und Norwegen, Russland und Nord-Amerika from 1873, published in connection with the Vienna world's fair of the same year.
    [​IMG]
    The first image shows the production of the different beer types in eimer (the Bavarian visireimer, at 68,4 liters each, which was the volume which was inspected and tallied by the authorities) from 1859-1871. By this time summertime brewing had been allowed, the brewing of higher gravity beers for breweries without special privilegies was allowed and by the end of the 1860s the rules which had dictated the ratio of malt to beer for schankbier and lagerbier was abolished. Schenkbier is the same as winterbier, lagerbier is the same as sommerbier or märzenbier, luxusbier is what was also called doppelbier, higher gravity beer, and weissbier is weissbier, both weisses weizenbier (wheat beer) and weisses gerstenbier (barley beer). Production is dominated by schank and lagerbier, bottom fermented beers, with relatively small amounts of luxusbier/doppelbier, and a decent amount of weissbier.

    [​IMG]
    The next table shows the numbers for 1871 but divides the numbers by region instead of by year. One obvious thing which stands out is the dominance of Schwaben in weissbier production, some 307 000 eimer out of a total of 373 760 eimer for all of Bavaria. Next comes Mittelfranken with its 46 000 eimer weissbier. The remaining regions represent a tiny amount of weissbier brewed, and are instead dominated by the bottom fermented types, lager and schenkbier. Also note the 5177 breweries in 1871.

    Again this is just a snapshot of a multi century long history, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
     
  7. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Meyvn (1,087) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Aventinus ages well, no?
     
  8. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,270) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    When the Vintage Aventinus first came out I tried it and didn't like it as much as the standard Aventinus -- it was just too oxidized tasting to me. Is it even still offered? So no, I, myself, wouldn't seek out "aged" Aventinus.
     
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  9. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Poo-Bah (2,106) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
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  10. thebeers

    thebeers Poo-Bah (2,692) Sep 10, 2014 Pennsylvania
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    FWIW, Patrick Dawson’s “Vintage Beer” claims that regular ole Aventinus peaks between years four and five. Sherry starts becoming pronounced between years seven and eight, and becomes too much for most after that. Their tasting panel said Aventinus was their favorite beer to vertical because every age was different in unique ways.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Meyvn (1,087) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    If it's this guy...

    [​IMG]

    Then yes, looks like they still do on their site in the shop. They're selling the 2014 vintage right now.

    http://shop.schneider-weisse.de/biere/schneider-weisse-aventinus-vintage/
     
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  12. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (4,006) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania


    Nice to see that figure.

    My very first experience with Aventinus was back in Sep of '09 when I found one of my regular places had 1 case each of the bottles aged in the brewery Eiskeller for 3 years and the bottles aged in the brewery Eiskeller for 5 years.

    I reviewed the 5 year release that Sep and enjoyed it, but at that time thought it might have passed it's prime. Subsequently I had the 3 year aged release (multiple times) and then about '12 I bit the bullet again and bought their last bottle of the 5 year release (then with about 9 years of bottle age).

    From my notes I'd say that every one of those beers seemed both quite complex and enjoyable. Different, yes, but... Indeed, while drinking my last bottle of the 5 year release in '12 I wondered to myself how I ever thought that first '05 had passed it's prime.

    Basically, my personal experience agrees with that tasting panel. Each of those releases at more than one age was different but still enjoyable in it's own way....
     
    #132 drtth, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
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  13. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Meyvn (1,087) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Maybe at 9 years it's better than at 5?

    And I'm sure each year has it's differences as well, like you'll see with Bigfoot.
     
  14. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (4,006) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Hard to be sure with out doing a true vertical, but at 9 years of mostly cold/chilled storage it was definitely still, complex, subtle and enjoyable...
     
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  15. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (4,006) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    By late 09 I had the fresh and more of each of the brewery aged bottlings. From my notes about the 3 versions I said:

    "I've now had at least 3 of these (the 5 year release) and wonder how I could have thought this one might be past its peak. Each of them has seemed more complex with more well integrated flavors than the one before it. The fresh is good, the 2005 is nice, but the 2003 is truely wonderful."
     
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  16. Claude-Irishman

    Claude-Irishman Crusader (754) Jun 4, 2015 New Jersey
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    A Vienna lager is about as close to a Marzen that you can get, I lived and worked in Germany and a blind taste test it is difficult to tell the two apart. You may have thought it was a Vienna Lager(which makes no sense) when its baby brother Marzen or fest bier is almost indistinguishable
     
  17. EmperorBatman

    EmperorBatman Initiate (74) Mar 16, 2018 District of Columbia

    Märzen is more like Vienna’s twin brother, albeit slightly heftier.

    Where did you find normal Vienna Lager in Germany? From my understanding, the style is practically extinct in Europe with the exception of a few legacy brands around Vienna, and the small revival performed by Austrian craft breweries such as Gusswerk and Muttermilch.
     
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  18. Claude-Irishman

    Claude-Irishman Crusader (754) Jun 4, 2015 New Jersey
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    von Trapp from Vermont brews a pretty authentic Vienna lager. They specialize in Austrian and German beers
     
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  19. EmperorBatman

    EmperorBatman Initiate (74) Mar 16, 2018 District of Columbia

    Oh yes, I know Von Trapp quite well, and have some in my fridge. In North America, Vienna and amber lagers have always been very popular, with Yuengling Traditional, Dos Equis Ambar, and Devil’s Backbone all being a testament to that. However, how often do German breweries in Germany make Vienna Lager?
     
  20. Claude-Irishman

    Claude-Irishman Crusader (754) Jun 4, 2015 New Jersey
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    I would say next to 0%
     
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  21. hottenot

    hottenot Aspirant (239) Aug 13, 2018 North Carolina
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    I should have said more like a Vienna Lager or a lager in general.
    I was in Germany from 1976 to1979. Giessen.
     
  22. hottenot

    hottenot Aspirant (239) Aug 13, 2018 North Carolina
    Society

    Or lager in general. I guess I had too many Marzens when I wrote that post. Yes it was lager, yellow and somewhat darker than pale. I broke my liter mug on a lamp post while staggering back to the hostel.
     
  23. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Meyvn (1,087) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    What do you mean “lager in general”?

    That’s a pretty broad category.
     
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  24. hottenot

    hottenot Aspirant (239) Aug 13, 2018 North Carolina
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    OK Licher Lager, Better?
     
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  25. thebeers

    thebeers Poo-Bah (2,692) Sep 10, 2014 Pennsylvania
    Society Trader

    What should the date code for a Hofbrau brewed this year look like?
     
  26. FatBoyGotSwagger

    FatBoyGotSwagger Meyvn (1,363) Apr 4, 2009 Pennsylvania

    It should end with a S. S is 2019, of it ends with a R it is 2018.
     
  27. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Meyvn (1,087) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Yup.
     
  28. ifnkovhg

    ifnkovhg Initiate (183) Aug 12, 2008 California

    Licher? I barely know her!

    Up top!
     
  29. hottenot

    hottenot Aspirant (239) Aug 13, 2018 North Carolina
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    yuck yuck A real commodeian right here on BA!
     
  30. WesMantooth

    WesMantooth Poo-Bah (2,652) Jan 8, 2014 Ohio
    Trader

    But did they use white cabbage, or green? Red is for Bock season after all, right?:stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  31. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,465) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

  32. hottenot

    hottenot Aspirant (239) Aug 13, 2018 North Carolina
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    Hofbrau Oktoberfestbier is what I am talking about. Finally got some here in the back 40.
     
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  33. southdenverhoo

    southdenverhoo Disciple (383) Aug 13, 2004 Colorado

    is there a precise date code somewhere on the Paulaner Oktoberfest Wiesn? i see the "best before" date--which is April 2020--does that mean these were bottled April 2019?
     
  34. steveh

    steveh Poo-Bah (2,270) Oct 8, 2003 Illinois

    Yes.
     
  35. ZAP

    ZAP Poo-Bah (3,824) Dec 1, 2001 Minnesota

    9 Liters is a great effort. Well done.
     
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  36. TrojanRB

    TrojanRB Meyvn (1,470) Jul 27, 2013 California
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    I used to have graduate level understanding of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics.

    Now I just know hot air rises and something something makes lift with an airplane wing
     
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  37. ifnkovhg

    ifnkovhg Initiate (183) Aug 12, 2008 California

    Fight on!
     
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  38. TrojanRB

    TrojanRB Meyvn (1,470) Jul 27, 2013 California
    Society Trader

    Fight On!
     
  39. Crusader

    Crusader Aspirant (288) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    I thought the video below on the 1:50 mark was enlightening in showing the bottled Hacker Pschorr Märzen vs the beer served in the tent. The narrator notes that it is the only one which is a different beer in the bottle vs what is served in the tent at the Oktoberfest.
     
  40. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Meyvn (1,087) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    What about Paulaner? And Spaten?