Poll on morality of reselling and trading beer.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by Ranbot, Jan 29, 2018.

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My moral views regarding reselling and trading beer is best described as:

  1. Beer reselling and trading are morally wrong. PERIOD.

    9 vote(s)
    1.6%
  2. Beer reselling and trading are never morally wrong. PERIOD.

    114 vote(s)
    20.5%
  3. Beer reselling is morally wrong, but trading is not.

    171 vote(s)
    30.7%
  4. Beer trading is morally wrong, but reselling is not.

    1 vote(s)
    0.2%
  5. Beer reselling is only morally wrong if the reseller personally profits.

    97 vote(s)
    17.4%
  6. Beer trading is only morally wrong if the trader personally "profits" from a exorbitant trade value.

    76 vote(s)
    13.6%
  7. I don't care; OR morality is case-specific here; OR Other - please describe

    116 vote(s)
    20.8%
  8. In the past 2 years I have personally engaged in beer trading

    278 vote(s)
    49.9%
  9. In the past 2 years I have personally engaged in beer reselling

    43 vote(s)
    7.7%
  10. In the past 2 years I have NOT personally engaged in beer trading or reselling.

    119 vote(s)
    21.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Ranbot

    Ranbot Zealot (526) Nov 27, 2006 Pennsylvania

    What's your moral stance on reselling and trading beer? Please try to pick the option(s) that best describe your opinion(s). Assume for the poll the beer was obtained legally by the reseller or trader. By "reselling" I mean secondary/black/gray markets, not law-abiding beer distributors or stores.

    The poll's last three response options are an attempt to gauge how many respondents participate in trading and reselling to see if there's a relationship to the moral responses. One would think there should be....

    I combined the "I don't care," "morality is case-specific," and "Other" responses, because they all ambiguous anyway, and I ran out of poll options. :stuck_out_tongue:

    And of course discuss. You can change your responses to the poll at any time if you change your mind.
     
    vabeerguy, meefmoff and TongoRad like this.
  2. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Although this is an ethics issue, not a morality issue, I think it's a pretty damn intriguing question and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how people respond.
     
  3. fehrminator

    fehrminator Disciple (362) Jan 26, 2008 North Carolina
    Trader

    We live in a free country. Trading and re-selling is a function of a healthy market. No one is getting hurt. In my mind, this isn't a moral question but rather one of personal values.
     
    spongebob2, Donco, smi69 and 22 others like this.
  4. FBarber

    FBarber Poo-Bah (2,342) Mar 5, 2016 Illinois
    Premium Trader

    Unless you're a teetotaler for religious reasons :stuck_out_tongue:
     
    BuffaloBill12 and EvenMoreJesus like this.
  5. meefmoff

    meefmoff Zealot (510) Jul 6, 2014 Massachusetts
    Premium

    I went with "I don't care/case specific".

    If there was some sort of actual business with either a quasi-monopoly (e.g. Ticketmaster) or some sort of quasi-illegal leg up (e.g. brokers with bots) I'd probably feel differently.

    But if it's just folks making road trips and loading up their trunks I think that a) there's not much that can be done about it and b) I don't really care. I'd certainly support any brewery's efforts to curb it if they decided it was in their interest, but I also don't feel as if breweries have any responsibility to do so if they decide they can't be bothered.

    Apart from very occasionally buying a grey market can of beer at a bar or in a concert parking lot, it's not something I myself partake in on either end.
     
  6. DISKORD

    DISKORD Initiate (188) Feb 28, 2017 North Carolina

    Re-selling beer is a d-bag thing to do, on so many levels!
     
  7. Snowcrash000

    Snowcrash000 Crusader (721) Oct 4, 2017 Germany
    Trader

    The problem with reselling beer is not that seller personally profits, it's that he deprives other people of the opportunity to purchase the beer for their personal enjoyment.
     
  8. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Not if people will pay for it, it's not. In these cases the "problem" is not with the sellers. It's with the buyers. No demand = no problem, because beer is a luxury, not a necessity.
     
  9. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,386) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Trader

    Is it okay if I am against re-selling, in favor of trading, and it has nothing to do with ethics or morality?
     
  10. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    As long as it has nothing to do with NEIPAs, it's OK. :wink:
     
  11. islay

    islay Initiate (186) Jan 6, 2008 Minnesota

    First of all, BA has an international user base. But, for the United States, what you wrote really isn't true when it comes to alcohol. The 21st Amendment to the federal constitution didn't just repeal prohibition. It also contains this Section 2:
    ... and "intoxicating liquors" traditionally has been interpreted to include beer, wine, etc. Much unlicensed selling of beer in the secondary market, as well as, arguably, beer trading, is illegal under the laws of most states. From an economic standpoint, I think an efficient, legal secondary market would be great. Is it ethical to violate laws to do something that isn't in itself unethical, given that potential competitors may be limiting their profit opportunities by complying with the law? That's a reasonable question.
     
    BuffaloBill12 and johnInLA like this.
  12. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    As you stated, "legal" and "ethical" are two, at times, very different concepts.
     
  13. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    I am all for trading but against reselling beer.
     
    Tdizzle, Lorianneb, BiddzzBA and 4 others like this.
  14. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    Care to share why?
     
  15. TongoRad

    TongoRad Poo-Bah (2,408) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Premium Trader

    The way I see it, a signal is being sent to the brewery regarding their pricing structure . And chances are they're doing right by the community by not raising them; so in the end the vast majority of their customers are getting a good deal . People profiting on the fringes seems to be the least troublesome result when dealing with the primary underlying issue.
     
    pat61, Bitterbill, John1985 and 6 others like this.
  16. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    What if someone purchases their allotment of a certain rare beer and then sells it, on the secondary market, to someone who could not have bought it themselves because of proximity? Who are they depriving?
     
  17. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    All the trading I have done is like for like. I purchase local beers and the other trader does the same. We make it roughly an even value and done. So there is no profit to be had. Re-selling to me is sort of seedy, you are buying beer then selling it to people usually at a highly inflated margin. I just don't like that. I think it encourages people to wait in line to get beer for the purpose of profit only, to me that sucks.
     
  18. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    But you understand that just because you don't like it doesn't automatically make it unethical, right?
     
  19. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    The point being made is that if you are in line to get beer because you want to drink it that is one thing. But if you are in line just to make money then the guys behind you who missed the beer because you got their cans get hurt. I think that is the main issue I have. If I wait two hours for a beer and miss out because half the guys in line are buying to re-sell then that hurts the folks who are there for the beer?
     
    Davl22, Sabtos, JackHorzempa and 8 others like this.
  20. bbtkd

    bbtkd Poo-Bah (1,899) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    Premium

    Trading and reselling are fine as long as age requirements are addressed. If you feel that either is morally wrong, don't bother telling me about it, just don't partake.
     
  21. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    Being ethical is not the question at hand, the OP was asking your own feelings on this no? Do I think it is illegal, certainly not. My own feelings are that I would like to see the people in line get the beer to consume first over the profiteers.
     
  22. EvenMoreJesus

    EvenMoreJesus Crusader (748) Jun 8, 2017 Pennsylvania
    Premium Trader

    That certainly sucks, but what's the difference between them getting the beer and drinking it and them getting the beer and reselling it? Either way, you waited and don't get the beer.
     
  23. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    For me it comes down to reason. A guy/girl waiting for 2 hours because they always wanted the beer tells me they are in it for the love of the beer/brewery. A person who does not drink the beer or beer in general but wants to make a side job off selling hard to get items at a high markup well they are like ticket scalpers to me. They suck up the good seats and the real fans get screwed with crap or pay double the price, if that makes sense?
     
    smi69, Sabtos, JackHorzempa and 4 others like this.
  24. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    The main difference is profit. They are there to make money verse being there because they want the beer for consumption.
     
  25. Dragginballs76

    Dragginballs76 Poo-Bah (1,807) Nov 13, 2015 South Carolina
    Premium Trader

    I chose only I have personally engaged in beer trading. I trade a good bit but I will admit before I built up enough reputation to trade here there were a few beers I bought and paid the markup. They were beers I really wanted to try and now could trade for but at the time I did not really know that much about trading. Do I regret it, at the time I did not but now I do because I overpaid. Morally in the end someone is drinking the beer that really wants it even if they overpaid for it.
     
    VABA and spelingchampeon like this.
  26. SammyJaxxxx

    SammyJaxxxx Poo-Bah (2,162) Feb 23, 2012 New Jersey
    Premium Trader

    But it is not depriving anyone. It is simply shifting that allotment to another person(s) that would otherwise not get the beer. Are you saying one person is more worthy than another.
     
  27. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,386) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Trader

    Anyone who asks a beer trader why he doesn't like the illegal beer secondary market is not a beer trader himself.
     
    Davl22, InfiniteJester23 and Junior like this.
  28. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Champion (810) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    I have never traded or resold any beer. That maybe because I don't have easy access to any tradable or resalable beer not for any moral reason.
    I know that this site IDs me as a beer trader and I have no idea why,
     
  29. doktorhops

    doktorhops Poo-Bah (1,582) Jan 12, 2011 Australia

    Don't see reselling or trading as a problem, as long as people aren't reselling it at exorbitant prices and making a racket out of it - sometimes people want a beer they can't get, and they're willing to pay a reasonable price for it.

    Naked profiteering is where I draw the line, I mean for Gods sake put some clothes on man! :stuck_out_tongue:

    Note: I have never traded or bought beer from a reseller FWIW.
     
  30. jvgoor3786

    jvgoor3786 Meyvn (1,407) May 28, 2015 Arkansas
    Premium Trader

    Free market rules. There's really no difference between trading and reselling. One just uses a different form of payment.

    The thing that bugs me is when someone buys the entire supply with the intent to resell/trade, but I don't see it as a moral issue. It just bugs me. Leave some for the rest of us, Man!
     
  31. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,496) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    I don't resell beer, ever (whether there is a profit or not). Nor do I ship beer across state lines, ever.

    I don't have the requiste state and federal licenses and so doing either or both is generally illegal.
     
    #31 drtth, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    Shroud0fdoom, Jaycase and dennis3951 like this.
  32. AZBeerDude72

    AZBeerDude72 Meyvn (1,260) Jun 10, 2016 Arizona
    Premium Trader

    Actually I do. My own feelings are the people in line who are in line to drink the beer should get it over the people only there to make money. I am sure people will say that is crap but not to me. I also don't think that is one being more worthy than the other? I am waiting all morning to get a beer to drink and the guy in front of me is only there to sell it for profit, you bet I feel issue with that.
     
  33. KBS

    KBS Aspirant (276) Apr 25, 2014 Michigan
    Trader

    To me, this is more of a brewery problem. I think we are at the point where most breweries count the line before setting allotments to make sure all lined up at open get some. If they are releasing a 200 count bottle and expect more than that to show up, they should do a silent release or ticket release so no one gets shut out that shows up.
     
    pat61 and TongoRad like this.
  34. MNAle

    MNAle Savant (921) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota

    Is the person waiting in line to buy beer to consume morally or ethically superior to the person buying it via a reseller to consume it?

    Is the person who uses the aftermarket to establish the trade value of their beer morally or ethically superior to the person who just sells it at the aftermarket price?

    Explain your answer!
     
  35. SammyJaxxxx

    SammyJaxxxx Poo-Bah (2,162) Feb 23, 2012 New Jersey
    Premium Trader

    The person on line is going to drink the beer.
    No my question is "Is the person who waited in line more worthy to drink that beer than the guy who purchased the beer from someone who waited on line?"
     
  36. PatrickCT

    PatrickCT Poo-Bah (1,616) Feb 18, 2015 Connecticut
    Trader

    As stated before, this isn't a question of morality. However, I don't believe selling or trading beer is wrong. If a person buys a beer from a brewery they pay the price for it. It is a fair trade. If that person decides to sell it to someone else over cost that overage is for the original buyers time and effort, not the beer.
     
  37. Jaycase

    Jaycase Meyvn (1,146) Jan 13, 2007 Illinois
    Trader

    The person waiting in line to purchase beer to consume is morally superior than the person in line to purchase beer to resell for a profit.
     
    chrismattlin and PatrickCT like this.
  38. PatrickCT

    PatrickCT Poo-Bah (1,616) Feb 18, 2015 Connecticut
    Trader

    Even if the profit isn't without cost? Standing on line, transportation, the risk of fronting the money, perhaps shipping? All of those things could be considered work. I don't believe that something that goes against regulation has anything to do with morality.
     
    TheOneTC and NextBestThing like this.
  39. Ranbot

    Ranbot Zealot (526) Nov 27, 2006 Pennsylvania

    Dammit! I purposely asked about peoples' morals to avoid semantic legal arguments and then you go all semantic on morals vs ethics. :angry: Why I aughtta..... just kidding.... but seriously you know what I am getting at, morals or ethics, whatever. I want to avoid the legal arguments of right vs wrong, because both are illegal.
     
    #39 Ranbot, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  40. TriggerFingers

    TriggerFingers Disciple (317) Apr 29, 2012 California

    So the concepts of "moral" and "ethical" are essentially, the same thing. One has a more "distilled" religious overtone than the other. I think he is getting at "right vs. wrong." Then there is the concept of how one deals with the "legal" aspects of this issue.

    Everyone is going to have a different answer because the notion is highly subjective. At what point does something become ok or not? Is it right to make a profit off of your neighbor? Is it wrong to break the rules of certain parcel services that prohibit such shipments?

    How about this:

    The "system" (and I used that term in a very philosophical and overarching way) that the craft beer culture has become, is a composite structure of procedures and practices, built with inherent weaknesses that some choose to (or choose not to) exploit for their own benefit. Be it monetary or greed.

    Ask 100 different people if its ethical and you'll get just as many complex answers.