Rest of Deutschland Bier bought and drunk

Discussion in 'Germany' started by seanyfo, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. Crusader

    Crusader Aspirant (266) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

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    Drinking Enter Night from Stone, brewed in their Berlin brewery. 5.7% abv. According to the monopoly website it is made from pilsner malt and Emerald, Sterling and Mandarina Bavaria hops. Colorwise it is pale golden. Aromawise it is hop aromatic, fresh and clean smelling. The taste is hop forward as can be expected and I'm reminded of Lagunitas New Dogtown, i.e a dry and hoppy American pale ale but the hops are a bit more subdued. The hops smell and taste American even if the Mandarina Bavaria are from Germany. It is quite resinous overall. The body is also similar to New Dogtown. I imagine with an abv of 5.7% the OG is around 12-12.5% plato, similar to the 12.5% of New Dogtown. The body seems well balanced and it has a nice mouthfeel I think, but it is definitely dry and with a dry and clean aftertaste. The bitterness is solid and refreshing, and does linger. I think it's really tasty and well made as far as a modern American hop forward lager beer goes, but at the same time it's impossible to not think of a (very clean tasting) American pale ale when drinking it. Since it is quite close in flavor to my all time favorite American pale ale, New Dogtown, this would be a repeat buy for me if it was on the shelf (it's only sold as a limited release), but it would perform the role of a pseudo APA, and a tasty one at that.
     
  2. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    price? (relative to, say, mainstream German Pils)
     
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  3. Crusader

    Crusader Aspirant (266) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    It's 24,90kr per 50cl can. Most domestic Swedish Export lager brands cost between 11-17kr for 50cl (economy brands-brand names-super premiums). König Pilsener costs 11,90kr per 33cl, Bitburger 13,70kr per 33cl, Beck's 12,90kr per 33cl, Jever 14,90kr per 33cl.
     
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  4. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Savant (936) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Sounds about right for a Stone Pils.
     
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  5. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    for many, many a US "craft" Pils...
     
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  6. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Savant (936) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    They're getting better though! Slowly but surely...
     
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  7. -N8

    -N8 Initiate (194) Feb 7, 2014 Germany

    I recommend Bierstadt Lagerhaus in Denver. They brew up some very legit German beers.

    I just wish they also had a classic German Biergarten to go with 'em.

    Clicky: https://bierstadtlager.com
     
  8. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Savant (936) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Oh I've been to plenty of legit places here in the US, but I always like hearing about more!

    Last year I hit up Urban Chestnut with @spartan79 on Super Bowl Sunday, and then this year on Super Bowl weekend I was at Live Oak in Austin (there appears to be some German theme with the Super Bowl and me these last two years...I was even in Germany a few days prior to being at Urban Chestnut).

    And of course our local Notch brewery makes some of the finest Czech beers in the US in my opinion, along with German styles as well. They still make the best "Pilsners" (Czech pale lagers technically) I've had in the US.
     
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  9. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    dude. no doubt:

    bierkellercolumbia.com

    :slight_smile:

    no pils...but I'm drinking our latest Helles at 11 weeks lagering and man...dangerous. I don't say that lightly
     
  10. Jacobier10

    Jacobier10 Poo-Bah (2,020) Feb 23, 2004 New Jersey
    Society

    I made it out to Denver for the first time last year and drank as much Slow Pour Pils as I could get my hands on. Man, that was some good stuff. Suarez Family Palatine Pils is another American-made pils that is nearly perfect, in my opinion.
     
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  11. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Savant (936) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    If I'm down there, it's number one on my list to visit!

    Suarez is another I've heard great things about.

    So we have like ten breweries in the country that can brew German-style beers. :wink:
     
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  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,910) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Waaay more than that. You need to add SEPA to your visit list. A new brewery of Root Down, a little over one year old, makes an excellent Pilsner (plus there are many other high quality Pilsners in the area).

    Cheers!
     
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  13. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,409) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    ABGB in Austin is a must. At the risk of being ostracized, I like them better than Live Oak, which is on I always stop at.

    Stammtisch Pilsner ist toll! I also meet up with @spartan1979 at Urban Chestnut last year. Good times.

    Sierra Nevada makes some great German styles on their pilot systems. I had the Pilsner that won the WBC gold in 2010, excellent. The last trip to Mills River, I had a Helles that was excellent. They brew with DO water. The pilot system in Mills River is from Kaspar Schulz in Bamberg.
     
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  14. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,910) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Jeff, FWIW I think that Live Oak makes a nice Pilsner but it is not in my top 10 of US brewed German Pilsners. I drink this beer when I annually visit family in Texas.

    On a related note for my palate Live Oak makes a Grodziskie which I think is very good. I discussed this beer last fall in a New Beer Sunday thread:

    https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/new-beer-sunday-week-717.595089/#post-6265329

    Cheers!
     
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  15. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    hear great things about Dovetail Helles. I thought Sierra Nevada's Helles was good.
     
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  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,409) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    On my stop at Live Oak in January, they had 5 smoked beers on tap. The classic Rauchbier was good.
     
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  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,910) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Wow! That is a lot of smoked beer variety!!

    Cheers!
     
  18. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,409) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

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  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,910) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Yards Brewing used to have a Smoked Beer event every September but they have not had one lately (last year or the year prior). By my reckoning the last one was in 2015?

    I posted in a past thread about the 2015 event:

    “I attended the 7th Annual Smoke’em if yous got em beer festival at Yard’s Brewing Company. I have not been to all seven events; I would guess the last four events.

    They had 34 beers listed for this event.”

    I guess they did not have good attendance at these events? Smoked beer can indeed be a polarizing beer type.

    I will be attending the Yards Real Ale festival this Sunday (4/14/19).

    Cheers!
     
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  20. AlcahueteJ

    AlcahueteJ Savant (936) Dec 4, 2004 Massachusetts

    Damnit, wish I knew that! That's ok, my buddy just moved there last year, I'm sure I'll visit again. I love that area.

    I love their Summerfest. Which apparently is out already.

    DO water? Hmm, my lab has RO and DI, but I've never seen DO.

    Yup, that was a nice beer. Incredibly sessionable at that ABV (< 4% if I recall?).

    Yup, I was there on Groundhog Day. I remember an extensive smoked beer list.
     
  21. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,910) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

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  22. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,409) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

    DO water means that the dissolved O2 is stripped out.
     
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  23. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    long and short of stone berlin: greg didnt listen.
     
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  24. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    maybe people think those of us who've been there, consumed 1000s of beers, and know the culture are just trying to be difficult or picky. dunno. I know a few such people. when it comes down to it, you'd be wise to at least trust/listen to those who know what they're talking about. alas...
     
  25. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,446) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society

    But in the "US Craft Brewing Mythology", neither did Fritz Maytag, Jack McAuliffe, Ken Grossman, Bill Newman, Matthew Reich or Jim Koch, et. al. - of course, only two of whom are still in the business (and, not listed, dozens more who failed even quicker :wink:).

    And of those two left, one could say their subsequent and long-lived success is attributable to eventually "listening" - to customers, distributors, marketers, professionally-trained brewers, etc.

    Understandable that Greg (marketer of "Arrogant Bastard") Koch would be attracted to the 'rebel/disruptor" image - "Hey, it worked last time in San Diego, USA!" - even if he did once hire an Anhueser-Busch brewer. :grin:
     
    #905 jesskidden, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  26. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    I get that. Doesn't change the fact that not listening was his downfall (this time). I'm actually looking forward to seeing the movie and noting the specific points where reality is truly setting in for him. There are bound to be quite a few of them, and if the documentary filmmaker is any good, he will have built the "story" around them
     
  27. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,446) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society

    Oh, no doubt but as they say, "History is written by the victors...".

    OTOH, "News" (and "internet chatter") is often about the losers, but soon forgotten or reduced to anecdotal footnotes. I guess it's up to Brewdog now to continue - or finish - the story.

    Yup, and likely the filmmaker wound up with a better story than the more predictable "dog bites man" tale he had of "US craft brewer builds a brewery in Germany"....
     
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  28. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    From the clips Ive seen and interviews with the filmmaker Ive read, he (like most everyone else) realized from the beginning what types of (massively frustrating) hurdles awaited the project. So I'm confident he not only "got," but was telling that story from the beginning in many ways.
     
  29. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,446) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society

    Yeah, who expects "The Beer Jesus of America" to build an "Edsel"?

    Crucified? Sure, but without a follow-up resurrection.
     
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  30. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    I swear to God, I believe that "disruptive" model might have worked in any number of different European countries. And in many ways I can see why you might think it would work in Berlin, since it is very different from the rest of Germany. But it's still German. And -- as Ive said many many times -- Germans are weird and Germany is a weird, weird market.
     
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  31. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

    I think of it as Greg being kinda like the Sid Vicious of punk, who is a True Believer until the end. Long past the point when Johnny Rotten (and most of the fans...whom Rotten had told they were being cheated) knew the whole gag had run its course.
     
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  32. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (278) Nov 3, 2005 California

    I agree here. From what I have read there are numerous reasons for the fail (many of them even predictable outcomes that were ignored) but the main learning point HAS TO BE that it was just too big. Knowing that he wanted to serve all of Europe from this location it was STILL TOO BIG. 200,000 Hectoliters, basically half the size of the brewery in San Diego, was completely over-dimensionalized. Anyone know how much beer they were actually brewing/selling in Europe? Guessing maybe 1/4 of capacity?
     
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  33. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,446) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Society

    It's all pretty confusing - in part because the writers of many of the articles, aimed at the general public (not the brewing industry) don't seem to understand that brewhouse size or square footage :rolling_eyes: doesn't tell much about the actual annual capacity of the brewery - and then there's the confusion between hectoliters and barrels/gallons. But:

    ---2016 https://brewpublic.com/beer-news/stone-brewing-world-bistro-gardens-opens-in-berlin-germany/
    ---2019 https://www.sandiegoville.com/2019/04/stone-brewing-berlin-ends-run.html

    Interesting to note that "38k bbl" capacity in the 2016 article is repeated in the above article about Brewdog's purchase. That could just be from using that Brewpublic article as a source but maybe Stone just never added more equipment to expand capacity?
    * So, about 30k bbl. / 35k hl.
    ---2017 - https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-california-beer-20170808-story.html

    https://beerconnoisseur.com/articles/talk-thomas-tyrell-brewmaster-stone-brewing-berlin

    Sounds to me that rather than TOO BIG, they spent TOO much money on a brewery with a small capacity and yet never had the market (despite all those countries) to expand it.
     
    #913 jesskidden, Apr 14, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
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  34. Crusader

    Crusader Aspirant (266) Feb 4, 2011 Sweden

    I'm not sure if changes in classification of craft breweries had any impact on the numbers below but I thought they were noteworthy when they were first published.
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    For 2017 they only posted the image below from what I could find, and none for 2018 as of yet.
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    So as the Berlin project was ramping up there was a shift afoot in US craft beer exports it seems, and quite a steep drop off at that (or is the picture skewed due to missing craft beer volumes from "ex craft" breweries?).
     
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  35. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (278) Nov 3, 2005 California

    According to my German source (Inside Getraenke) the project was originally priced at 18 million Euros and would be set up to be able to brew 200,000 HL.
     
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  36. einhorn

    einhorn Aspirant (278) Nov 3, 2005 California

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  37. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,088) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry

  38. boddhitree

    boddhitree Zealot (518) Apr 13, 2008 Germany

    About Stone in Berlin...of all the reason's Stone wasn't successful that were mentioned in the article, the main thing that killed them in my opinion was having a location too far outside the center of the city and without easy access to the public transport system. I don't think the price of the beer was a big impediment, for many German craft brewers are making profits.

    Last time I visited Berlin, I visited some craft beer related places, yet Stone's location was off-putting to say the least. If it had been in a easily accessible location on a subway/tram or Sbahn line, they would've been successful. I guess it's the Cali mind-set of not really getting public transport. There are many craft beer bars which are very successful in Berlin and Germany as a whole, but they're not in some faraway, distant location. First, if you add the bad location with a product that generally is much higher priced than than what your consumer is used to paying, and having a product which is relatively unknown by the masses and seen as somewhat "hipster"... then you make it arduous to get to. Bad business model.

    I actually mentioned the location issue to Greg Koch here on BA, where he chimed in to some of our comments. He said he made it there on a 20+ minute bike ride from the city center. I mentioned without public transport, you're doomed, but it didn't deter him. He might've cycled on a nice weather day, but in northern Germany (and Germany in general), those are few and far between. It's more often rainy, or just damp, in winter cold and often snowy...yea. So, you need to drive out there, and Germans are pretty good about not drinking and driving.

    Berlin is booming craft beer-wise, but business is still all about location.
     
  39. jonb5

    jonb5 Meyvn (1,014) May 11, 2010 United Kingdom (England)

    I wouldn’t want to cycle from Mariendorf to the centre of Berlin after a few tasty but strong Stone beers.

    In Germany you can lose your driving license if get caught cycling while intoxicated.

    Does Uber operate in Berlin? It wasn’t available when I went to Stone.
     
  40. Roadkizzle

    Roadkizzle Initiate (196) Nov 6, 2007 Texas

    ABGB and Live Oak I find make their Pilsners from a different route.
    Live Oak has more malt flavor along with a strong Saaz/Tettnang hop flavor and bitterness. It matched up well in a tasting with Wernesgrüner and Pilsner Urquell ( PU was the smoothest tasting but still.)
    ABGB has a crisper profile still with good malt flavor and a great balance between the hops and malt.

    ABGB makes phenomenal pale lagers and they're different than Live Oaks and in most cases on the Pale Lager front I'd say they edge out Live Oak... But they haven't really had much more on the lager front than Pilsners of some sort or a Helles.
    Live Oak shines the number of European styles they make very well. I love their Schwarzbier, Grodziskie, their Lichtenheiner, Hefeweizen, Oktoberfest, and more. Plus their smoked beers are the only ones I've really enjoyed from the US (I love Schlenkerla at the Schlenkerla Keller and biergartens around Bamberg). They make a rauchbier, a smoked schwarzbier, a smoked Oktoberfest, the Grodziskie and more.

    If I want a crisp pilsner I'll go to ABGB any day but if I want European style beers then I'll go to Live Oak.
     
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