Scotch ale isn't carbonating: What's my next step?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by MCBanjoMike, May 11, 2015.

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  1. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    Back in January, I did a 3 gallon batch of the wee heavy recipe from Brewing Classic Styles. Everything went according to plan, but in the many, many weeks since bottling I still haven't managed to get much by way of carbonation. I originally bottled at the end of February and left the bottles in the basement (temp around 63F) for about a month. At that point, the bottles that I tested gave a slight hiss, but had very little carbonation. I decided to move the bottles upstairs, where the temperature was about 72F, and rouse the yeast before letting them sit for another month. I tried one yesterday and it didn't seem any better than the ones I had tested in March. At this point, I figure the problem is either faulty capping, or else the yeast is having a hard time dealing with the 9.5% ABV. I bottled in a mix of 12 oz and 22 oz bottles, but I'm not sure how good the seals are on the 12 oz bottles (the size I have been using for my testing). I'm going to sacrifice a 22 oz bottle soon, and if that one is flat then I'll know it isn't the caps that are causing the problem, because my capper has a very good track record with those bombers. I should know within a day or two, as soon as the urge to drink a Scotch ale strikes me again.

    So assuming that I need to add fresh yeast to my beer, what's the best way to do it? What kind should I buy, and how much should I put into each bottle? It would be a shame to lose this batch, it's pretty tasty even without carbonation - but I can't see myself drinking bombers of it flat. Next time I make a big beer like this, I'm just gonna keg it...
     
  2. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand Pooh-Bah (5,533) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    First, I think you need to determine if your priming sugar was well mixed throughout your batch so that you will know that you don't have some bottles that are under carbed and some that are over carbed. Did you fill all of the bombers first and then the 12-ounce bottles? When you open a bomber, you may get your answer if that bottle is well carbed if it may have been bottled from a different level of beer from your bucket. Sugar that is not well mixed will tend to stay near the bottom of the bucket and get put in the early bottles.

    Another thing to check in your notes is whether you added a proper amount of sugar for the size of your batch.

    If you're sure that sugar is well dispersed in your beer and the right amount was added, then you can move on to attempting to add some yeast to each bottle and re-capping them. If you reach that point, I would use dry yeast and add just a few grains of the yeast to each bottle. Re-cap them and leave them in a place that is around 70 degrees.
     
  3. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    Unfortunately, I didn't note how much sugar I used, but I doubt that's the problem. I always use the carbonation calculator on the Northern Brewer website (it's the first one that comes up on Google!) and I'm pretty used to dealing with sugar in those amounts (I measure in grams using a digital scale). I know that I racked onto the sugar solution and stirred at least when I started bottling, though probably not halfway through the process. But with a 3 gallon batch, it doesn't take very long to bottle and I doubt there was too much of a difference in sugar concentration between the bottles. Opening a bomber will help me verify this, because I filled all my larger bottles first and then did the smaller ones after.

    If I wind up re-yeasting, does it matter what kind I use? I thought I might need a champagne yeast, but would US-05 do the trick just as well?
     
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,055) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    The only yeast strain to definitely not use would be one that's more attenuative than the original strain. Champagne yeast should be good, because it doesn't eat maltotriose, and thus won't over-carbonate you beer. It also has a high alcohol tolerance. (Though 9.5% shouldn't really be an issue for most strains.)
     
  5. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    I used Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale for this one, which claims to have 69-73% attenuation. Can you recommend a dry yeast to follow that up with that wouldn't over-attenuate? What about Red Star Premier Cuvée?
     
  6. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,055) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I haven't used this one, but have heard it's good for bottle conditioning, and that it doesn't eat maltotriose...
    http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/cbc-1-cask-bottle-conditioned-beer-yeast

    ETA: Meant to add...some Champagne Yeats are "killers," meaning they will kill off your remaining beer yeast...probably not good for your beer. That's why I linked the one above instead...I have a list of killer strains somewhere (at home), but the linked cask/bottle strain should be perfectly safe.
     
    #6 VikeMan, May 11, 2015
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
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  7. Mongrel

    Mongrel Initiate (0) Feb 14, 2013 Maryland

    I also did a big Scotch ale back in November that I had the same issues with. It was meant to be a holiday ale, but didn't carb up in time for the holidays. After a couple months, I ended up uncapping all of the bottles and dosing each of them with just a couple flakes of champagne yeast. I recapped the bottles and a few weeks later I had fully carbonated beer.

    Obviously, this is a last resort, as you open the beer up to oxygen yet again, but in my opinion it was far better than dumping 5 gallons down the drain. The end result had a slightly oxidized flavor that was easily overlooked in the face of such a big, robust beer.
     
  8. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    That looks good, but I'm not sure where I can get it in Canada. The reason I mentioned that wine yeast is because it's available at the store where I was planning on placing my next order. Why would it be bad if the wine yeast killed the original pitch? Because it will stop the conditioning process?
     
  9. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,055) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I was thinking more from a standpoint that dead yeast will tend to rupture.
     
  10. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,336) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I had an imperial stout do this very thing. The yeast gave up the ghost. After months of little carbonation I went ahead and bought this:
    http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/cbc-1-cask-bottle-conditioned-beer-yeast
    After popping all the caps off my bottles I used sterilized (boiled and alcohol dipped) tweezers and added a pinch of this yeast to each bottle. Two weeks later everything was roses. It is a yeast strain meant for pitching at bottling and will only munch the simple priming sugars. Don't bother with the wine or champagne yeast, this is the way to go.
    @VikeMan I missed your link earlier.
     
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  11. MarkGP

    MarkGP Initiate (0) Jan 28, 2015 Rhode Island

    The CBC-1 is great for bigger beers that have been sitting in secondary for a while. I bottled a 12% Barleywine that had been sitting since last October and it carbed up nicely after 4 weeks with the CBC-1. I learned the hard way on a previous batch of a Wee Heavy that fermented with 1728 yeast and I bottled with US-05. The US-05 continued to ferment in the bottle and gave some red wine flavors and then over carbonated. Live and learn! HTH!
     
  12. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    Sounds like the decision is unanimous, huh? Thankfully, I found a homebrew shop in Canada that carries CBC-1, so I'll be ordering some if my bomber turns out to be flat. Thanks to everyone for the advice, hopefully I'll be able to salvage about 2/3 of this batch.
     
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  13. PapaGoose03

    PapaGoose03 Grand Pooh-Bah (5,533) May 30, 2005 Michigan
    BA4LYFE Society Pooh-Bah

    Let us know how it goes.
     
  14. A2HB

    A2HB Initiate (0) Oct 30, 2013 Michigan

    I"m having the same issue with a 9.8% Rye DIPA I brewed in March. The two tester bottles I've opened have been just about completely flat. Granted it's only been 17 days since bottling but I was expecting some fizz by now. I'm giving it 7-10 more days then I'm going to try pitching the CBC-1 yeast Vikeman mentioned.

    Does anyone know what can cause yeast in bottles not to carbonate like this? I've never had a commercially brewed beer that was bottle conditioned turn out flat so why does it happen with homebrews? Strange stuff these yeast!
     
  15. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,055) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Assuming the temperatures are okay and that appropriate amounts of priming sugar have been added and that the caps are properly sealed, that leaves... dead/sick yeast. Which can happen, depending on yeast strain, ABV, how much yeast was originally pitched, pre-fermentation oxygenation, nutrients, and probably other factors I'm not thinking of.
     
  16. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,336) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I'm finding pretty much any of my yeast that carry a beer to or above %10 during fermentation are hard pressed to carb my bottles.
     
  17. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    So if anyone is interested in an update, I received my CBC-1 yeast several weeks ago and finally got around to re-pitching...last night. By my count, it has been over three months since I bottled this beer, and it has been upstairs in the warmer temperatures for the last two of those. Anyway, I started opening my bottles last night, only to find that the "hiss" had gotten significantly louder. In fact, depending on the bottle, it varied from "pretty quiet" to "champagne cork" (for some flip-top growlers I have). I decided to drink a sample from a warm 12oz bottle, and while it was a little undercarbonated for the style, it was much better than the last one I tried. Starting to think that my priming sugar wasn't as well-mixed as I thought, though, because the larger bottles seemed to have a lot more pep. In the end, I decided to add yeast to the bombers and growlers, but the 12oz bottles didn't seem worth the effort. I'll let them sit another week or two, but I think a lot of these bottles are already carbonated and ready to drink. I put one of the flip-tops into the fridge, so next time I have some guests around I'll give it a try and see how it's doing. I guess the lesson here is to give big beers a really long time to carbonate - or to just keg the damn things and be done with it.
     
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  18. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,055) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    FTW.
     
  19. MCBanjoMike

    MCBanjoMike Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2014 Canada (QC)

    Last night I had some of this beer and it was (gasp) carbonated! Or at least, the flip-top 750mL bottle that I tried was. I also opened a 330mL capped bottle, and that one was still less carbonated than I wanted. Could it be that there isn't enough yeast in a smaller bottle to properly carbonate a high ABV beer like this? Either way, I'm happy that at least part of this batch will end up drinkable (and pretty tasty, based on the glass I had yesterday). I'll post a pic in WHBAYDN next time I have some.
     
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  20. Woodberg

    Woodberg Initiate (0) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    So how did you pitch it? Did you just put a pinch into each bottle, or did you empty the bottles into a bottling bucket and start over. Also, did you add additional sugar. I've got a batch of bottles which are also a mix of 12 and 20 oz bottles. After 5 weeks, very low carbonation. Just got an 11g packet of CBC-1 but wasn't clear on how to use it.
     
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