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So, how's beer trading going?

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by Todd, Oct 29, 2012.

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  1. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,330) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    It's been a while since we checked in, but we thought we'd give the last round of changes some time. We did, and now we'd like to hear from you. Some of you have also expressed your concerns to us as recently as last night, so here's your chance to share them with the greater community in attempt to find solutions.

    So, ignoring any future features that might come with the site redesign (meaning something that would require extensive coding), what could we do to make beer trading a better experience for everyone right now?

    Recently, it's been discussed by some that we should:
    • Add a link/sticky to the Bad Traders List.
    • Create a Beer Trading 101 sticky post.
    • Allow replies again. You'll really need to sell us on this one as moderation has been a dream without it, but we're listening.
    Anything else? We're open to any and all serious ideas.

    Thanks in advance,

    yamar68, FUNKPhD, Rutager and 3 others like this.
  2. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,330) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    Correct. It wouldn't make sense for us to do any extensive coding right now as we're in the middle of a site redesign.
  3. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,330) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    We are. A feedback system is something I've always wanted.
    gpawned, libbey, HopsMatt and 8 others like this.
  4. mulder1010

    mulder1010 Meyvn (1,019) Aug 29, 2008 Australia

    Trading feedback is one for me.
    Would love to see the option of the person putting up a FT to allow feedback in the thread or to not allow feedback in the thread. As well the poster coulld have the ability to shut down the feedback if he so desires. I guess in a way self moderation.
  5. InebriatedJoker

    InebriatedJoker Zealot (586) Sep 16, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Trades have been the same for me with the new system and old ,Thank You awesome BA's (you know who you are).
    I personally enjoy no threadshitting in a ISO: - The trade is between two people and should stay that way ,
    If they want to find out if it's a fair deal they can start a thread in the trading general help ..
    amnesia85 likes this.
  6. Axic10

    Axic10 Zealot (588) Mar 15, 2008 New Jersey
    Beer Trader

    I think that the comments are a necessary evil. While threads would get bumped and threads way off topic, we had less threads like "ISO: Growler of 3 Hour Tour, FT: 2 Cans of HT" or "ISO: Fou' Foune, FT: 5 bottles of Stone Mint Chocolate Stout". Part of me just wants to see the guys who create those threads called out on this nonsense so that those offers don't keep coming up.

    I would love to see some sort of feedback system as well.
    Pelican5, mattsander, buffs9 and 4 others like this.
  7. LieutenantSour

    LieutenantSour Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2011 California

    Comments gone is a good thing, but the limit of 3 ISO/FT posts per week should be put back in effect, specifically to curtail 'No posting duplicate posts / bumping,' per Beer Trading Rules & FAQs.
    Retail1LO likes this.
  8. Franch

    Franch Devotee (445) Mar 22, 2011 District of Columbia
    Beer Trader

    I like all 3. I hate the threadshitting, but think Axic10 is right. No replies has turned the Beer Trading Discussion forum into the new ISO:FT.
    Pelican5 likes this.
  9. xnicknj

    xnicknj Initiate (0) May 25, 2009 Pennsylvania

    the first two items would be great.

    i'm another in support of allowing comments again. i understand you guys dont want to spend hours moderating the people who cant control themselves, but dialogue on a trade thread can be helpful and necessary (ie - questions about bottle size, vintage, etc). also, i dont necessarily think its a bad thing when someone who posts a totally ridiculous offer gets called out on it.
  10. Axic10

    Axic10 Zealot (588) Mar 15, 2008 New Jersey
    Beer Trader

    It isn't that bad to scroll past them, but as posts like those continue to happen, they will be come the majority and the legitimate offers will be harder to find/stand out. Also if people don't know if the trade didn't get completed it will lead to more of this.

    While I agree that there is not going to be any sort of universal agreement on any trade being fair, the guy who was offering up the Stone Mint Chocolate Stouts not only didn't work out a trade, but he continued to post even more ridiculous trades (adding more to the ISO part and taking away from the FT piece). It seems that when people report these threads that 2-3 more pop up.
  11. black13

    black13 Disciple (303) Apr 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    I like #1 and #2. In the past I thought the idea of feedback was good, but there were too many negative comments and it's easy enough to just scroll past trades you're not interested in.

    An idea that I think would be great is a boxe on the side of each ISO/FT that said: Trade completed. Then when you've made a trade you could just check the box.

    Then people could see what trades actually got completed. Not sure if others like this idea or if it requires a lot of coding, but it would be a quick way to see which trades actually get done.
    sliverX, beerhan and amnesia85 like this.
  12. Axic10

    Axic10 Zealot (588) Mar 15, 2008 New Jersey
    Beer Trader

    I think that the box idea would work, only if it was set up to have both parties click that it got done. What would stop somebody from checking that they traded their (insert readily available local here) for Dave? Common sense would prevail that it didn't actually happen, but if two (non-linked accounts) agreed that a trade was completed, then it would work.
    cavedave likes this.
  13. HopsJunkiedotcom

    HopsJunkiedotcom Initiate (0) Dec 24, 2010 Florida

    Bad trader list sticky would also help the community as a whole to utilize it a bit more. Aside from trader feedback system, this is the single best thing you can do in my mind.

    I also dig black13's idea of "Trade completed" edit to ISO:FT threads. That would help us actually know who to message and who not to, in lieu of comments. Seriously, that's a great idea.
  14. Axic10

    Axic10 Zealot (588) Mar 15, 2008 New Jersey
    Beer Trader

    Also with the number of bad trader threads popping up lately, replying to threads might help people who don't do the research of the other part in the trade. If a notoriously bad trader is offering up beer and it is made publicly known that they are on the bad trader list, it will cut down on members getting scammed. I don't that enough people would reference a bad trader list prior to setting up a trade with somebody who would burn them.
    cavedave and thome50 like this.
  15. forgetfu

    forgetfu Initiate (172) Jul 27, 2007 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    Allow replies but don't allow the replies to bump the thread! This allows for the best of both worlds.

    Part of the problem with replies historically has been that unbalanced threads get lots of discussion, which bumps the threads, and pushes the reasonable, fair trades out. In general, the most replied to threads are the least likely trades to be completed. Yet they are always at the top of the forum. Also, by allowing replies that bump, it encourages people to reply with thinly veiled "bumps" such as supporting their friend or adding a detail or adjusting the trade in some small way.

    However, replies and discussion are also a good thing. Constructive feedback, comments, clarification about beers, release information, etc. There is a lot of valuable community discussion that is useful for the community. By allowing replies, this information can be added to a thread. An open community will always thrive more successfully.
    drewba, OneBeertoRTA, Jeffo and 15 others like this.
  16. vissai

    vissai Initiate (0) Oct 6, 2010 California

    Return comments please. People need to gauge what _____ beer is going for these days. It would be a lot more productive. I also noticed trade posts in general declined when commenting was disallowed.
  17. shyhenry

    shyhenry Initiate (156) Oct 11, 2010 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    Please allow replies to ISO:FT threads.

    Replies allow for a transparent diffusion of information that can be really helpful to members of the community (especially young traders).

    While moderating the trade forums would become a bit more taxing, the benefit to the greater community would be significant. Doing what's best isn't always doing what's easiest.
    badbeer, FTowne, Gosox8787 and 3 others like this.
  18. podunkparte

    podunkparte Initiate (0) Nov 14, 2009 Washington

    Replies in trade threads are very useful. Reading through lots of them back in the day is a big part of how I learned to judge what beers are relatively comparable value-wise.

    One person's threadshitting is another person's constructive criticism.
  19. Axic10

    Axic10 Zealot (588) Mar 15, 2008 New Jersey
    Beer Trader

    You can also report that DB's post. Not every single BA will see that post and if it is a legitimate offer that somebody is happy to complete on their side, you should have no problem completing said trade. The majority of the threadshitting doesn't occur on a offer like that, but ones similar to what I posted in my initial post. No matter if there are replies or not, there will be DB's, it's par for the course. You're an adult, don't let a negative BM get you down.
    Gosox8787 and Photekut like this.
  20. glitchedmind

    glitchedmind Initiate (0) May 8, 2012 California

    He got a fair trade because I put up an ISO:FT offering what he wanted and what i wanted. I dont trade beyond $4$. Can't say that for others offering the same beer.
    amnesia85 likes this.
  21. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,330) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    Guys ... let's keep to the focus of the thread please; your ideas. Thanks.
    claaark13 likes this.
  22. UNCCTDawg

    UNCCTDawg Initiate (0) Nov 30, 2011 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    Trading for me has gone well lately (minus earlier this year with the whole Mikesgroove saga), but I think that if a user has a tag on his account for being on the bad trader list, like was mentioned earlier, it would be a nice addition.
    mikecharley likes this.
  23. Etan

    Etan Initiate (0) Jul 11, 2011 Wisconsin

    -Bad trader sticky is a good idea
    -Trading 101 sticky is a good idea
    -Personally, I'm indifferent about this, but as to replying to ISO:FT - if you do allow it, I think making it so that a reply doesn't bump the thread is a good solution
    -Also a time limit on posting in ISO:FT is good for new users. Around ~4-6 months before posting seems fine to me?
  24. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Poo-Bah (4,635) Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    Is there away to easily allow/disallow posts inside your post when you first add it? Perhaps, a box that defaults to "comments not allowed" unless the OP checks it?

    Obviously, if possible, I would suggest even if the OP did check the box that the thread is not bumped to the top.

    Personally, trading for me has been going fantastically... but I have pretty much reverted to only trading with folks I have had previous business with before.

    That said, the ISO/FT forum is a seemingly endless crap-show of 2-3 pages of new posts every single day; and IMO above 90% are not getting done. I unfortunately have no idea how to remedy this.
  25. ThoreauLikeAGirl

    ThoreauLikeAGirl Initiate (0) Mar 11, 2011 Pennsylvania

    funny how the people that are for keeping the ISO FT post only, are the notorious uneven trade requesters.
  26. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,330) Aug 23, 1996 California
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    I think it might be a bug with the forum software. I honestly forgot about it, but fixing it and making it the default for just ISO:FT would require changes to the core of the code.
  27. amnesia85

    amnesia85 Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2012 Connecticut

    I love everybody! Trading is great. Sorry for getting off topic. I'm glad ny end was explained. Matador I did not know your were tight with "hop slam guy" ska db, but I always enjoy your comments "that rug tied the room together!
  28. match1112

    match1112 Initiate (0) Mar 2, 2011 Illinois

    I like the Bad Trader and Trading 101 sticky ideas. Also kinda miss the noobs not being able to post in the trading forums, that helped me when I was new, but I'm also slow to learn. Last thing I would like to see is a feedback system where we can post on other members walls again. Other than that trading is going great!
  29. Agold

    Agold Defender (641) Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    reasonable trade posts have been fewer and farther between since replies were taken away. I know moderatoins is your concern, but werent you considering making some users mods a while ago? When is that going to happen? Bad trader sticky is necessary, so is trading 101.

    I have never, and will never, understand what upsets people about any comment made by random jackasses on the internet like myself. Worst case scenario nothing happens. Best case scenario you get more views and your trade gets done or you realize you have to add something and you get your trade done.

    Posting helps people learn. I learned about trading by watching the forums and reading responses. Now there is absolutely no frame of reference for new traders.
  30. thebigredone

    thebigredone Champion (802) Dec 19, 2011 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    I say do not allow replies again. I don't think anyone needs to be telling anyone else what to trade or not trade for. There is literally nobody forcing you to trade for something you don't want, if you don't like the deal don't do it. And mind you, I try to be generous, not to win. I just don't like everyone feeling the need to, and mores having the ability to, interject in business that's not theirs. Plus, reading an ISO: FT is much easier without having to scroll through a ton of ridiculous comments.
    amnesia85 likes this.
  31. thebigredone

    thebigredone Champion (802) Dec 19, 2011 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    P.S. I am super happy with trading as it is, a feedback system would be great though. Thanks.
  32. sarro

    sarro Initiate (163) May 12, 2009 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    Not a fan of replies even though I've never had a problem with threadshitting in my own trade threads, but I'd love to see "no bump" trading implemented.
    Seems like that would require some coding though...
  33. ThoreauLikeAGirl

    ThoreauLikeAGirl Initiate (0) Mar 11, 2011 Pennsylvania

    how'd that bcbs + other shelf beers for king henry / hunahpu work out for you?
  34. beesy

    beesy Disciple (391) Jul 21, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Bad Traders sticky/link - YES!!
    Trading 101 sticky - YES!!
    Replies - NO!!
    95+% of the replies were threadshits. I feel it hindered people getting trades done by people posting what they felt was more appropriate or what they recently got done similarly (even though they had no desire to complete the trade). Also opened up some auctioning - why respond to someone when you can let your thread sit and see who offers the best deal for you, right??
  35. thebigredone

    thebigredone Champion (802) Dec 19, 2011 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    FWIW, please see post: http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/hunapus-for-bcbs.43723/

    BTW, Who's Your Daddy was brewery only. Also, technically speaking, King Henry is off the shelf (I do recognize the rarity there).

    Do you feel much better about yourself now that your opinion was expressed? If so, I'm glad I could help.
    tronto likes this.
  36. ThoreauLikeAGirl

    ThoreauLikeAGirl Initiate (0) Mar 11, 2011 Pennsylvania

    yes. i do. and you didn't answer my question.
  37. thirstygator

    thirstygator Initiate (176) Mar 29, 2012 Florida
    Beer Trader

    I feel that allowing Iso:Ft comments encourages the thread starter to get educated. I spent months on here reading and researching before I felt prepared enough to wade into the trade waters without a serious threat of threadshitting. Allowing comments brought a sense of transparency to the trading market whereas now, people do their raping, pillaging and personal attacks through PM's without any sort of public accountability.

    Oh yeah, ideas 1&2 sound great.
  38. claaark13

    claaark13 Zealot (504) Nov 29, 2007 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    In direct response:

    1. Yes.
    2. Yes.
    3. It may be better if replies don't bump threads (or don't bump after "x" period of time, although I honestly don't know what the would entail). People post ridiculous ISO/FTs without any consequence. No one knows what gets completed, which does help with what it takes to land a bottle. The General Help forum has become somewhat of a joke. I actually follow that forum the most because I find it the most amusing. I've had little success with the new ISO/FT forum style, and I do attribute that to what I find is an auction-like mentality of many traders. I may be in the vocal minority, but those are my thoughts. Posting ISO/FTs without replies helps the auction-style trading thrive.

    Furthermore, I think that a lot of people are overly-sensitive to replies. Anytime someone says anything other than, "Wow, your trade seems great!", they cry wolf. Saying that "x" beer is super-rare and that the OP may want to up the ante above Zombie Dust or Pliny is not "threadshitting".
  39. thebigredone

    thebigredone Champion (802) Dec 19, 2011 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    If you're actually curious (doubtful), no trade was made. But that's the beauty of the system, nobody was interested and nothing bad happened! At least as far as I can tell, the world has not ended (I refuse to accept responsibility for the storm currently ravaging the east coast), and based on the fact that I'm typing this response to you BA is still is a functional website. Amazing, even with the ability to gaggle and snark, life goes on. Hence my continued suport of the no replies.
  40. Patrick

    Patrick Initiate (0) Aug 13, 2007 Massachusetts

    If you buy into the idea that people have been less active on the trade forums because of no replies, then you might consider allowing replies for the sake of site activity. I'd imagine if more people are active in one area of the site they are more likely to be active in others.

    To deal with threadshitting (this is kinda trader feedback) if someone was reported as threashitting, could it be noted in their profile/under their avatar? Having this would hopefully discourage people from doing so (if they care about being considered a threadshitter at all). Maybe have a title with the number of threadshits next to it somewhere in their profile for people to see.
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