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Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by Todd, Oct 29, 2012.
I haven't had a timeout since the change. Coincidence? =)
I feel there's a bit of unfair revisionism going on in regard to the old system of trade replies.
I found replies to be generally helpful and informative. Our rush to generalize the former system as some massive thread-shitting clusterfuck ignores all the helpful comments and constructive criticism that many members submitted.
I was not serious. I was having fun on a forum on the internet.
I can say it again if you would like. New traders are helped by replies. Sometimes quantity for quality works, but that is exceedingly rare these days. Sometimes asking for an IP trade and offering locals works... oh wait. No it doesn't. People aren't forced into a trade but they might not know about BA Yeti or 09 Abyss or any of the other many infections that happen to different vintages of beers. Maybe the OP learns that they have to add to their side to get a trade done. Or maybe they get a few extra views and a BA decides the deal is worth making and they get their trade done. Maybe (as has happened before) people figure out that an account is connected to another one that has a shady history and they post it in their trade thread to keep people away. It keeps bullshit offers to a minimum because there is at least a mild consequence for posting a stupid offer and gets rid of people who are legitimately trying to get one over on a new user (a situation which was referenced earlier in this thread).
So there are just a few people and situations that will be helped by threadshitting. Now it is your turn to come up with an equally compelling list of ways people are hurt by threadshitting. extra points if you could come up with one that would not be fixed by adding a mod who is an experienced trader and a million points if you can do it without referencing russled jimmies.
You just never know when somebody is gonna piss on your rug..............
LOL HOW? Easy. People raid my thread chiming in that what I'm asking for is unrealistic after I've got something lined up...then the person comes back and says "You know...I'm having second thoughts. Everyone seems to think you're holding me over a fire on this one. I'm going ot have to reconsider." No one else has any business whatsoever giving their two cents on whether they'd make the deal offered or not...unless I ask them. If I'm getting crickets, then obviously I've constructed a poor trade proposal. If it closes, then there was value in it. If someone questions the value of it, they can start a thread in the General/Help section and solicit opinions.
And the day someone else starts dictating what trade offers I'm allowed to make, is the day I leave this site. The fact is...ridiculous trade proposal or sound one...the people that reply are more often than not replying out of their own best interest. They're seldom attempting to be helpful or insightful. They're just trying to entertain themselves as if the ability to reply is their own personal toy.
They're better off using a thumbs up/thumbs down function. So people could get a quick idea of what others thought of the trade without having to endure the threadshitting and even worry about moderating.
I'd wager that has actually happened less times than the opposite scenario - whereby a person sees all the negative drama and ponies up to get the trade done and prove a point. In fact, I've seen the latter happen dozens of times, and I'm not sure I've ever even seen the former. Threadshitting is a bit of a boogeyman.
The trading forum may well be broken past the point of repairing. A lot of the old guard is now gone, beer releases are usually a nightmare, and trade values have continued to trend up as every beer is suddenly more and more RARE than the last. (Helped along by the reality that people now know they can collude to hoard to artificially inflate trade value.)
If it's going to continue, we need a trade feedback system and a sticky for sure. I'm also in favor of replies with a better system in place to curb the useless chatter. A three strike and you're out policy for comments which really are negative and meant to stop a trade from happening or inflate a beer's value. Good information, as rare as it is, stays.
So you were "harmed" because someone who didn't realize you were making a ridiculous offer found out that they could get a better offer for their beer and decided to go elsewhere? That's cool I guess. **Edit: also, see cbeer88 post. That.** It's like free speech. You can say whatever you want, but free speech is not freedom from consequences. You can make whatever offer you want, but if it's dumb, people should be able to say so. Open information is good.
And just because you don't see people's responses as helpful or insightful does not mean that they aren't. And even if they were, lack of aid or insight is not harmful. And this is a forum on the internet. It is here to entertain us. I know some would have you believe that this is very serious business, but it is just a place where a bunch of people shoot the shit about beer and have fun on the internet. Without people "trying to entertain themselves" 99.999% of the internet would not exist.
And when you say that we wouldn't have to worry about moderating, you say that as if it were an undue burden that would be forced on someone. I would bet if the bros solicited volunteers to moderate the trading forum they would get dozens of responses to choose from. No one has to worry about moderating. Endure threadshitting? You have to endure a chick flick that a girl drags you to or a mandatory lecture or pain or hardship. These are things you cannot escape. Responses on an internet forum are quite easily avoidable.
Does anyone have an actual case of a trade that happened in which an ignorant new trader got taken advantage of?
How about a permanent price check thread?
I've got about 15 trades under my belt, all done while comments were allowed. Guess how many of my trades got threadshit...none. If you had a trade get threadshit, it's because it deserved to be threadshit.
Comments are a necessary evil, just prevent them from bumping if possible.
Do you mean a single thread for all beers? Or a sub-forum?
How about as a sub-forum, within each region. I care a lot more about what something is going for locally than what someone across the country is paying for it.
I like the price idea. Perhaps a "price range" could be added to the page for each beer.
That might be overkill, but we're taking all suggestions under consideration right now. Thanks.
How about allow 3 posts total per week to the trade forums (ISO:FT that is)? That is, including replies and new thread postings. That way there would be some thought maybe given to the replies, instead of a constant banter back and forth...
My friend, I am glad you were not being serious.
I am glad that some folks were helped in the replies. That's cool, and a great part of BA is the community that can be built. However, it appeared to me, and granted I may be wrong, that for any one trader that was ever helped, three people were just threadshit upon. Random jack-ass comments (the most), BA's starting mini-conversations with in the thread with other BA's that had posted comments (sometimes), and getting trades pulled (least) because of all these shenanigans. All the while, the OP is just trying to trade some beer. If somebody wants it, it happens. If nobody is interested, it does not happen. Let freedom ring. I'm afraid this will have to be the end, as I've wasted my allotted time for the day. Agree to disagree, I guess.
Grammar Nazi P.S. - *rustled jimmies
Most responses start off helpful, even if the response is flippant. The real problems happen because the threads are bumped. Activity begets activity. An active thread at the top of the forum with a lot of responses is increasingly likely to get more and more responses, discussions, side conversations, jackass comments, etc. But who actually looks at a trade thread on page 2? If threads aren't bumped, responses will happen, and most of them will be useful. Trades will happen if they were going to happen, and then fall off the page. Off topic thread takeovers won't dominate page 1.
As for the moderation nightmare, don't moderate it or very lightly moderate it.
It is trade AT YOUR OWN RISK where people can actually get ripped off, why not post AT YOUR OWN RISK where only feelings may get hurt?
I understand not including names etc. on the forum that would need to be removed ( however I really think if you screw someone over, you are fair game ) but I can see the ramifications.
I got my balls busted a few times when I started to trade. I learned the internet is a wild place and got over it.
( at the time Dreadnaught did not trade for KBS )
We are all at least 21 here aren't we?
Rabble rabble rabble.
Now that I have got that out my system- good job on the site. Threads shitting in the trade forums had begun to bleed over into other forums and made the site overall a negative place. As far as the complaint of trade value- there is no trade value aside from what is paid for the beer. Went out of your way for it and drove two days and lost a friend in the process? Good for you champ, if what is offered doesn't measure up then don't trade it. Worse comes to worst you will have to -gasp- drink that beer you worked on so hard for.
In short, this site works just as it needs to.
Allow replies / list posts by date.
I think that a beer trading 101 sticky would be awesome. I remember not too long ago taking time to search on BA and google to get some info on trading and the associated dos, don'ts, and other associated things to know before you jump in. However there are plenty of people who don't take time to figure things out before they jump in. I'm sure a sticky would help with that. And it goes without saying that a bad traders list sticky would surely help things out.
yes. i know both the people involved. but i snickered about it due to the person on the other end getting taken advantage of was a mildly entertaining thing. not going to post the details here.
I like the first 2 options, and I'm mixed on the 3rd. I personally like being able to Reply in the Trade fForum. It gives a chance for a positive reference to be made about the OP. I know this may seem small, but I like being able to randomly toss my 2 positive cents in on behalf of a solid BA. But sadly, as mordormongo said, it can get ugly quick.
Not to distract from the otherwise pristine and infallible logical structure of your brilliant argument (cough cough), but...grammar isn't spelling?
And to give a substantive reply: so you'd rather get rid of helpful posts than "suffer" through threadshits (which you've already admitted don't bother you)?
I think you're right. Seems like my typo...
RUSSLED some jimmies.
I really like the idea of a sub-forum within Beer Trading for price checks. Then the BCBS or whatever price-check thread could be full of everybody's different costs (they could mention where they made the purchase), and people researching trades could search that much easier. Seems like it would cut down on comments in ISOs if said comments were to be reinstated.
Trading is going ok. Not much has changed since any of the new site implementations. But here's my two cents anyways:
1) Yes, please sticky the bad trader list.
2) Yes, Beer Trading 101 would be awesome too.
3) Yes to replies as long as they don't bump. If your ISO/FT really was fair then there should be no worry about threadshitting. Out of the 100s of ISO/FTs I've put up I have never had any threadshitting, nor have I ever had someone BM me their thoughts.
4*) (I know it wasn't initially addressed, but...) Yes to minimum site reaquirements before someone can post in any trading forum (maybe with the exception of the IT forward forum, only because I don't know how much of an issue these things are over there). Minimum time as a BA and minimum number of posts would help weed out the one-day-old new accounts started up and diving right into trading.
My real issue with trading lately (albeit a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things) is the Beer Trading/General Help forum. It is just a new ISO/FT forum where replies help your post stay at the top for days on end until it finally gets done. If you want to know the value of your beer, post an ISO/FT looking for specific beers (or styles) in return. You'll probably find out pretty quickly what it's worth. If you really aren't certain what you want to trade it for then spend some time researching rather than posting your "Trade Value" question (which we all know is just the new auction format).
I agree with photekut in the sense that if Beer Trading is done "at your own risk," then posting in that forum should also be done that way. Leave the moderation for real issues, such as posting personal information, names, etc., or if someone is truly out of control and resorting to personal attacks, etc.
Thanks guys, you're doing a great job as it stands now and thanks for listening to our feedback!
My opinion is that the majority of those that want replies want them for the entertainment value alone. I don't trade often and don't care either way.
Touché, good sir. You out grammar-nazied me.
Allow replies in the ISO/FT forum again. The useful information offered far outweighs the crapping (for those with tougher skin at least).
Have default sort by date. This eliminates the bumping problem.
Otherwise, this place is solid.
A sub-forum under Beer Trading. Similar to the Beer Trading/General Help.
I'm unclear. Where exactly are people supposed to do this "research", if not via the Trading/General Help forum (or replies in ISO:FT)? We lost tons of historical information in the Great Crash, and most people never go back to edit a post to say if it got done (or if it did exactly what the trade was in the end). Lots of breweries don't post bottle counts, prices, or bottle limits on their websites.
Maybe you can FT a beer and get a sense of value from the responses you get (but be careful you don't get dinged for auctioning), but I really question that ISOing blindly gets you much information.
I say yes for all three. 1 & 2 would be amazing. Since replies were disabled, all that the General forum gets now is "what can i get for xxx" and "how do i get xxx", etc. That forum has pretty much become the old ISO forum.
Just browsing through some of the comments regarding allowing users to comment on trade posts again I have the following two thoughts which require no added work for the Bros:
1) If a user is posting junk to the forum just ignore them (I mean, select the "ignore" feature here) and you won't see their posts anymore. It no longer clogs up your screen and you won't feel offended anymore or compelled to shit on them.
-Keep in mind that its everyone's right to ask for whatever they deem fair. Whether it's a realistic deal is a whole other question, but that's not the point.2) If you think someone isn't asking enough for their rare bottle you can always private message them about it. Hell, you can do this for the obscenely outlandish offers too if you really want.
-Sorry that this solution doesn't allow for you to be seen publicly defending the honor or your whales though...I do think there is some value to be had in allowing comments on trade threads, but frankly the cons far outweigh the pros. Leave 'er as is imo.
Disabling replies in ISO:FT has done two things: made it harder to get trades done if you don't already know the relative value of what you want, and turned General/Help into an auction block, precisely because people don't know what their (or others') beer is worth. See this thread:
If noobs spent some time reading and learning they'd figure out pretty quickly what their beers are "worth" (whatever that means). Research along those lines is done by learning the ropes, watching the forum, and learning through hard knocks (in other words, posting FT threads and getting nothing but crickets). Hence my response:
I certainly see your point here though:
Those are legitimate questions for the General/Help forum. I didn't bash those types of threads. I find them helpful myself. My problem is "What can I get for a 4-pack of FBS," and "What is King Henry trading for these days." 99% of such posts are thinly veiled attempts at circumventing the ISO/FT forum, read: "If I post FT: KBS, ISO: 2012 Blabaer 750ml $4$ will it get done?"
A lot can be learned by spending just a few days reading and researching the trade threads.
How about an advanced search for gots and wants
If I have beers a b and c for trade and want to get beer y. If I could put a b and c Into a
Got field then y into a want field and have the members show up that want a b and or c and have y that Would be cool
I vote for allow replies without bumping the thread.
Unfortunately we're falling into the pitfall of web-based apathy. What are normally serviceable human beings in real life (meaning possessing of a minimum of intelligence, common-courtesy, and common-sense) suddenly become incredibly rude, clueless, and helpless online.
You could apply your comment to the regional forums - for beer releases, breweries off common highways, bars to visit in large cities, etc or frankly virtually any aspect of any public forum website.
My only point being that resources available are not necessarily used. I support you on a minimum time requirement for using the trading forums. Frankly, I was a huge supporter of the minimum user contribution requirement the Bros instated last year. I know many went ballistic over it, but I felt it was a good way of weeding out some of the riff raff.