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So, how's beer trading going?

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by Todd, Oct 29, 2012.

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  1. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I'd wager that has actually happened less times than the opposite scenario - whereby a person sees all the negative drama and ponies up to get the trade done and prove a point. In fact, I've seen the latter happen dozens of times, and I'm not sure I've ever even seen the former. Threadshitting is a bit of a boogeyman.
  2. Sarlacc83

    Sarlacc83 Initiate (0) Mar 2, 2008 Oregon

    The trading forum may well be broken past the point of repairing. A lot of the old guard is now gone, beer releases are usually a nightmare, and trade values have continued to trend up as every beer is suddenly more and more RARE than the last. (Helped along by the reality that people now know they can collude to hoard to artificially inflate trade value.)

    If it's going to continue, we need a trade feedback system and a sticky for sure. I'm also in favor of replies with a better system in place to curb the useless chatter. A three strike and you're out policy for comments which really are negative and meant to stop a trade from happening or inflate a beer's value. Good information, as rare as it is, stays.
    cavedave likes this.
  3. Agold

    Agold Defender (641) Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    So you were "harmed" because someone who didn't realize you were making a ridiculous offer found out that they could get a better offer for their beer and decided to go elsewhere? That's cool I guess. **Edit: also, see cbeer88 post. That.** It's like free speech. You can say whatever you want, but free speech is not freedom from consequences. You can make whatever offer you want, but if it's dumb, people should be able to say so. Open information is good.

    And just because you don't see people's responses as helpful or insightful does not mean that they aren't. And even if they were, lack of aid or insight is not harmful. And this is a forum on the internet. It is here to entertain us. I know some would have you believe that this is very serious business, but it is just a place where a bunch of people shoot the shit about beer and have fun on the internet. Without people "trying to entertain themselves" 99.999% of the internet would not exist.

    And when you say that we wouldn't have to worry about moderating, you say that as if it were an undue burden that would be forced on someone. I would bet if the bros solicited volunteers to moderate the trading forum they would get dozens of responses to choose from. No one has to worry about moderating. Endure threadshitting? You have to endure a chick flick that a girl drags you to or a mandatory lecture or pain or hardship. These are things you cannot escape. Responses on an internet forum are quite easily avoidable.
    cavedave and Photekut like this.
  4. tjohn2401

    tjohn2401 Initiate (52) May 26, 2010 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    Does anyone have an actual case of a trade that happened in which an ignorant new trader got taken advantage of?
  5. Jpwv

    Jpwv Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2009 North Carolina

    How about a permanent price check thread?
  6. bryanole27

    bryanole27 Aspirant (227) Jun 24, 2011 North Carolina

    I've got about 15 trades under my belt, all done while comments were allowed. Guess how many of my trades got threadshit...none. If you had a trade get threadshit, it's because it deserved to be threadshit.

    Comments are a necessary evil, just prevent them from bumping if possible.
    comfortablynumb1 likes this.
  7. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,308) Aug 23, 1996 Colorado
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    Do you mean a single thread for all beers? Or a sub-forum?
  8. kmello69

    kmello69 Defender (617) Nov 27, 2011 Texas
    Beer Trader

    How about as a sub-forum, within each region. I care a lot more about what something is going for locally than what someone across the country is paying for it.
  9. tjohn2401

    tjohn2401 Initiate (52) May 26, 2010 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I like the price idea. Perhaps a "price range" could be added to the page for each beer.
  10. Todd

    Todd Founder (5,308) Aug 23, 1996 Colorado
    Staff Subscriber Beer Trader

    That might be overkill, but we're taking all suggestions under consideration right now. Thanks.
  11. tbadiuk

    tbadiuk Aspirant (265) Feb 9, 2009 Manitoba (Canada)
    Beer Trader

    How about allow 3 posts total per week to the trade forums (ISO:FT that is)? That is, including replies and new thread postings. That way there would be some thought maybe given to the replies, instead of a constant banter back and forth...
    cfrances33, ehammond1 and kiki3drt292 like this.
  12. thebigredone

    thebigredone Champion (802) Dec 19, 2011 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    My friend, I am glad you were not being serious.

    I am glad that some folks were helped in the replies. That's cool, and a great part of BA is the community that can be built. However, it appeared to me, and granted I may be wrong, that for any one trader that was ever helped, three people were just threadshit upon. Random jack-ass comments (the most), BA's starting mini-conversations with in the thread with other BA's that had posted comments (sometimes), and getting trades pulled (least) because of all these shenanigans. All the while, the OP is just trying to trade some beer. If somebody wants it, it happens. If nobody is interested, it does not happen. Let freedom ring. I'm afraid this will have to be the end, as I've wasted my allotted time for the day. Agree to disagree, I guess.

    Grammar Nazi P.S. - *rustled jimmies
    Retail1LO likes this.
  13. forgetfu

    forgetfu Initiate (172) Jul 27, 2007 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    Most responses start off helpful, even if the response is flippant. The real problems happen because the threads are bumped. Activity begets activity. An active thread at the top of the forum with a lot of responses is increasingly likely to get more and more responses, discussions, side conversations, jackass comments, etc. But who actually looks at a trade thread on page 2? If threads aren't bumped, responses will happen, and most of them will be useful. Trades will happen if they were going to happen, and then fall off the page. Off topic thread takeovers won't dominate page 1.
    JRSD, OddNotion, cavedave and 2 others like this.
  14. Photekut

    Photekut Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2006 Tennessee

    As for the moderation nightmare, don't moderate it or very lightly moderate it.

    It is trade AT YOUR OWN RISK where people can actually get ripped off, why not post AT YOUR OWN RISK where only feelings may get hurt?

    I understand not including names etc. on the forum that would need to be removed ( however I really think if you screw someone over, you are fair game ) but I can see the ramifications.

    I got my balls busted a few times when I started to trade. I learned the internet is a wild place and got over it.
    ( at the time Dreadnaught did not trade for KBS )

    We are all at least 21 here aren't we?
    OddNotion likes this.
  15. youradhere

    youradhere Devotee (479) Feb 29, 2008 Washington
    Beer Trader

    Rabble rabble rabble.

    Now that I have got that out my system- good job on the site. Threads shitting in the trade forums had begun to bleed over into other forums and made the site overall a negative place. As far as the complaint of trade value- there is no trade value aside from what is paid for the beer. Went out of your way for it and drove two days and lost a friend in the process? Good for you champ, if what is offered doesn't measure up then don't trade it. Worse comes to worst you will have to -gasp- drink that beer you worked on so hard for.

    In short, this site works just as it needs to.
    Retail1LO likes this.
  16. Pelican5

    Pelican5 Initiate (0) Feb 4, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    ^THIS x10^

    Allow replies / list posts by date.
  17. mahak213

    mahak213 Initiate (0) Mar 5, 2012 New York
    Beer Trader

    I think that a beer trading 101 sticky would be awesome. I remember not too long ago taking time to search on BA and google to get some info on trading and the associated dos, don'ts, and other associated things to know before you jump in. However there are plenty of people who don't take time to figure things out before they jump in. I'm sure a sticky would help with that. And it goes without saying that a bad traders list sticky would surely help things out.
  18. ThoreauLikeAGirl

    ThoreauLikeAGirl Initiate (0) Mar 11, 2011 Pennsylvania

    yes. i know both the people involved. but i snickered about it due to the person on the other end getting taken advantage of was a mildly entertaining thing. not going to post the details here.
  19. 2beerdogs

    2beerdogs Poo-Bah (1,582) Jan 31, 2005 California
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    I like the first 2 options, and I'm mixed on the 3rd. I personally like being able to Reply in the Trade fForum. It gives a chance for a positive reference to be made about the OP. I know this may seem small, but I like being able to randomly toss my 2 positive cents in on behalf of a solid BA. But sadly, as mordormongo said, it can get ugly quick.
  20. Etan

    Etan Initiate (0) Jul 11, 2011 Wisconsin

    Not to distract from the otherwise pristine and infallible logical structure of your brilliant argument (cough cough), but...grammar isn't spelling?

    And to give a substantive reply: so you'd rather get rid of helpful posts than "suffer" through threadshits (which you've already admitted don't bother you)?
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  21. Agold

    Agold Defender (641) Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    I think you're right. Seems like my typo...
    RUSSLED some jimmies.

  22. JebediahScooter

    JebediahScooter Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2010 Vermont

    I really like the idea of a sub-forum within Beer Trading for price checks. Then the BCBS or whatever price-check thread could be full of everybody's different costs (they could mention where they made the purchase), and people researching trades could search that much easier. Seems like it would cut down on comments in ISOs if said comments were to be reinstated.
    Rutager likes this.
  23. mcc1654

    mcc1654 Aspirant (280) Mar 20, 2011 Illinois

    My opinion is that the majority of those that want replies want them for the entertainment value alone. I don't trade often and don't care either way.
  24. thebigredone

    thebigredone Champion (802) Dec 19, 2011 Wisconsin
    Beer Trader

    Touché, good sir. You out grammar-nazied me.
  25. Jeffo

    Jeffo Poo-Bah (2,601) Sep 7, 2008 Netherlands

    Allow replies in the ISO/FT forum again. The useful information offered far outweighs the crapping (for those with tougher skin at least).

    Have default sort by date. This eliminates the bumping problem.

    Otherwise, this place is solid.
    domtronzero likes this.
  26. Jpwv

    Jpwv Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2009 North Carolina

    A sub-forum under Beer Trading. Similar to the Beer Trading/General Help.
  27. kscaldef

    kscaldef Initiate (0) Jun 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    I'm unclear. Where exactly are people supposed to do this "research", if not via the Trading/General Help forum (or replies in ISO:FT)? We lost tons of historical information in the Great Crash, and most people never go back to edit a post to say if it got done (or if it did exactly what the trade was in the end). Lots of breweries don't post bottle counts, prices, or bottle limits on their websites.

    Maybe you can FT a beer and get a sense of value from the responses you get (but be careful you don't get dinged for auctioning), but I really question that ISOing blindly gets you much information.
  28. calcnerd

    calcnerd Zealot (525) Oct 26, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    I say yes for all three. 1 & 2 would be amazing. Since replies were disabled, all that the General forum gets now is "what can i get for xxx" and "how do i get xxx", etc. That forum has pretty much become the old ISO forum.
    domtronzero likes this.
  29. Spider889

    Spider889 Meyvn (1,044) Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Just browsing through some of the comments regarding allowing users to comment on trade posts again I have the following two thoughts which require no added work for the Bros:

    1) If a user is posting junk to the forum just ignore them (I mean, select the "ignore" feature here) and you won't see their posts anymore. It no longer clogs up your screen and you won't feel offended anymore or compelled to shit on them.
    -Keep in mind that its everyone's right to ask for whatever they deem fair. Whether it's a realistic deal is a whole other question, but that's not the point.​

    2) If you think someone isn't asking enough for their rare bottle you can always private message them about it. Hell, you can do this for the obscenely outlandish offers too if you really want.
    -Sorry that this solution doesn't allow for you to be seen publicly defending the honor or your whales though...​

    I do think there is some value to be had in allowing comments on trade threads, but frankly the cons far outweigh the pros. Leave 'er as is imo.
  30. FunkyMacGroovin

    FunkyMacGroovin Initiate (0) Sep 22, 2009 California

  31. rowingbrewer

    rowingbrewer Champion (841) May 28, 2010 Massachusetts
    Beer Trader

    How about an advanced search for gots and wants

    If I have beers a b and c for trade and want to get beer y. If I could put a b and c Into a
    Got field then y into a want field and have the members show up that want a b and or c and have y that Would be cool
    JimmyW and cavedave like this.
  32. badbeer

    badbeer Initiate (0) Jun 19, 2005 Iowa
    Beer Trader

    I vote for allow replies without bumping the thread.
  33. Spider889

    Spider889 Meyvn (1,044) Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Unfortunately we're falling into the pitfall of web-based apathy. What are normally serviceable human beings in real life (meaning possessing of a minimum of intelligence, common-courtesy, and common-sense) suddenly become incredibly rude, clueless, and helpless online.

    You could apply your comment to the regional forums - for beer releases, breweries off common highways, bars to visit in large cities, etc or frankly virtually any aspect of any public forum website.

    My only point being that resources available are not necessarily used. I support you on a minimum time requirement for using the trading forums. Frankly, I was a huge supporter of the minimum user contribution requirement the Bros instated last year. I know many went ballistic over it, but I felt it was a good way of weeding out some of the riff raff.
    Retail1LO likes this.
  34. Spider889

    Spider889 Meyvn (1,044) Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I agree with everything you're saying, but unfortunately that doesn't seem possible on BA for 2 reasons:

    1) For it to work fully, and to keep the Bros sane, the trading forum comments would have to be virtually un-moderated. Do you see that ever happening? Doubtful seems too weak a word.

    2) Related to #1, the community here can't seem to abide by the same values I mentioned that many "n00bs" or others lack online: common courtesy being the main one here. I'm all for a quick shaming of the guy who is unabashedly trying to auction off a fake bottle to the highest bidder. But it doesn't stop there, the community will turn that thread into a 90 reply epic of argument and insult.

    The spinoff effect is that the new guy who keeps hearing about Younger and Blabaer suddenly asks for them (innocently) in his first trade thread. Again the whole community descends on the guy insulting and assuming he's a cheater because his account is new. Yeah, he should have done his research a bit more, but we lose a community member for life because of the shitshow that ensued. Chasing away users (despite what some around here may think) is not going to help this site, the trading community, and the beer community survive and thrive.

    If we are going to revert to replies, I'd suggest the following:
    -no bumps
    -poster can allow or disallow replies at any time (so if too many chime in with unwelcome comments the thread can have replies turn off post-creation)
    -poster can delete the thread at any time
    -stricter protocols for posting and time-lapse
    -Go back to 2 (or 3, 4, whatever) maximum threads open at a given time​
    -auto-delete/close all trade threads with zero activity after a week (or some other timeline)​

    And of course this is all made much easier and more useful when inter-worked with a permanent site-hosted stickied Bad Trader List and the eventual trader feedback system.
    Retail1LO, Mandark and JohnGalt1 like this.
  35. Spider889

    Spider889 Meyvn (1,044) Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Drinking a Frangelic Mountain Brown. Wishing it was the '07 BCBS some guy just found in his parents' basement.

    Admittedly all of this exposition is likely wasted until after we see the feedback system. Once in place I feel like most/all of these problems would go away on their own.
    Auror and domtronzero like this.
  36. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Poo-Bah (4,617) Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    I like this guy.
  37. Etan

    Etan Initiate (0) Jul 11, 2011 Wisconsin

    So it's ok to ask for Younger after trade #40? :rolleyes:
    cavedave and domtronzero like this.
  38. OneBeertoRTA

    OneBeertoRTA Devotee (487) Jan 2, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

    Spot on.

    I think if #3 is reinstated we should add in the sticky what classifies as threadshitting. Someone saying FBS is a shelf beer located all through out IL and can be found with little effort while Citra is a 6 bottle brewery only release in the middle of nowhere is not threadshitting. Someone saying you can order the ISO beer online is also not threadshitting, it is being helpful and promoting advocacy. I can not imagine any real beer advocate being against that.
    ASUBeer likes this.
  39. EdwardFortyHands

    EdwardFortyHands Initiate (0) May 3, 2012 Iowa

    How about a stochastic difference model that takes into account beer rarity, value, and other factors to assign units to a beer from 1-1000. These can then be used to sum over trades and allow for a fair and balanced metric for comparison across proposed deals.

    A little linear regression explaining the idea of trade value would be great and free up some frozen markets. Because right now we are experiencing assymetric information bias.
    rrryanc, sarro, kscaldef and 2 others like this.
  40. trancesk8er

    trancesk8er Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I think keeping the replies out is a good move ultimately. I think linking to a bad traders list is an absolute must.
    Great job guys keep it up
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